Nature vs nurture....

[mom2many]

I don't believe that sexual preference is set in stone at birth. I think it is something that is influenced by the way you're brought up, experiences you have, and how you interpret situations and conditions, and how you are raised.

I think of discovering your sexual preference like you discovering what your favorite color is as a child. When you are growing up, say your parents bought you a red fire truck as a toy and that was your favorite toy...which led you to have your favorite color of red. That doesn't mean that your favorite color will always be red, but it might be...everyone has different experiences and different feelings which are changed as they grow by things that go on around them and how the interpret and internalize feelings.

Poppy wash. I have always known I like men. I can not ever remember a time when I didn't. If anyone had a reason to float the other way it would have been me. Men were rarely if ever a good role model in my life. Yes there was a few but one was a criminal and while fiercely protective of my sister and I he wasn't exactly a walking billboard for the male species. The other walked me down the isle but still not a great male role model.

Comparing likes and dislikes does a great disservice to the gay community. It trivializes the hard ships in life they have to face. I can not believe that anyone would choose to live that lifestyle.

Most parents of gay children see the signs very young in life, whether they choose to acknowledge them or not is a different story, but it is there. Every gay friend I have ever had will tell you that they always knew what they were, they may not have been able to put it into words but they knew they were "different".

 

[cybele]

^^^ agree with mom2many, ive always known that ive liked men, and my kids really didnt have any 'gay influnces' or what have you growing up, and hey, there you go.

I dont think I like men because I saw a man at a young ge and went "hey,I like that, think I might decide to be straight"

 

[Cedar]

My dad uses that example of "Why would anyone choose to be gay?", due to all the hardships they are known to have endured and continue to endure in certain cultures and communities.
Well, why would anyone choose to be a serial killer? Probably because of the same reason anyone is gay or straight. A combination of genetic composition and environmental influences. The extent of the two will probably be debatable infinitely.
What about cancer? Is that purely genetic? We know of lots of cancers that are linked to environmental influences.

Anyway, I believe we are products of our environment in general, especially when you talk about personality. But you cannot deny the human body and mind are complex animals and we are hardwired differently and similarly. Just look at genetic variation and evolution.
Simply for fundamental reasons of furthering our own genes, I think we are mostly hardwired to be heterosexual so we can reproduce. If nobody chose to be gay, and it was purely genetic, wouldn't said genes have died out a long time ago? Or is it some reoccurring mutation (genetically speaking)?

I think the debate on whether or not being gay is nature or nurture has become so polarized in our culture because gays have had to defend themselves against religious communities persecuting them for "choosing" to be abnormal. The defense seems to be "I was born this way, so accept me". Well, how about "I choose to be this way, so mind your own business!". I think it is obvious that some communities have a problem with this mindset in general, whether the issue is sexual orientation, religious belief or non-belief, abortion, birth control or other lifestyle choices that do not hurt anyone.

Influence of genes cannot be underestimated, but neither can upbringing. Do we really know exactly how everything has affected our psyche from day one to today? I may recall some influential experiences in my life but certainly not many from my earliest years which many seem to acknowledge as among the most formative.

I think most people can agree that there is no single "recipe" to become gay. And unless you have only been intimate with one person, you know that everyone is not exactly the same even when they affiliate themselves with one particular sexual orientation.

 

[Incogneato]

Poppy wash. I have always known I like men. I can not ever remember a time when I didn't. If anyone had a reason to float the other way it would have been me. Men were rarely if ever a good role model in my life. Yes there was a few but one was a criminal and while fiercely protective of my sister and I he wasn't exactly a walking billboard for the male species. The other walked me down the isle but still not a great male role model.

Comparing likes and dislikes does a great disservice to the gay community. It trivializes the hard ships in life they have to face. I can not believe that anyone would choose to live that lifestyle.

Most parents of gay children see the signs very young in life, whether they choose to acknowledge them or not is a different story, but it is there. Every gay friend I have ever had will tell you that they always knew what they were, they may not have been able to put it into words but they knew they were "different".

Fair enough, but I disagree with you. Just because you know how it worked for you doesn't mean it can automatically apply to everyone.

If you interpret my statement as a disservice, that is your right, but I by no means have any problems or concerns with how others live their lives. I find it hard to believe people would choose to live many different ways, yet they do.

 

[mom2many]

It makes me post something before I reply inside a quote..

Fair enough, but I disagree with you. Just because you know how it worked for you doesn't mean it can automatically apply to everyone.

I will agree with this, but my feeling are not just based off of personal experiences. It's also based off of those I know. But you are right and I would never say that there is no possible way (because there is no way to really know with 100% assurance) that "life" has no influences on people.

If you interpret my statement as a disservice, that is your right, but I by no means have any problems or concerns with how others live their lives. <I> I find it hard to believe people would choose to live many different ways, yet they do</I>.

So true, but again I still feel that some people are just hardwired differently. That there are things in life we will never understand. We can all have our opinions/beliefs/faiths whatever people want to call it, but if it isn't illegal and it isn't hurting anyone then it is not our place to judge.

 

[Incogneato]

I can just agree to disagree then lol

I completely agree, I would never judge someone on how they choose to live their own life. The only time I get upset is when it starts affecting me. (NOTE..I'm not saying in anyway that being gay or lesbian or bi or anything, can affect me by them just having a preference). I'm talking about when someone elses actions or choices infringe on my own right to live how I want. Example...someone plays radio WAYYY too loud from 11pm-4am and I'm trying to sleep.

 

[Testing]

The defense seems to be "I was born this way, so accept me". Well, how about "I choose to be this way, so mind your own business!".

At least I can respect the honesty of the second position.

, I would never judge someone on how they choose to live their own life. The only time I get upset is when it starts affecting me.

Agreed, though I don't like it when groups are affected, such as when a school board has to defend itself legally to the tune of thousands of dollars because some kid just HAS to go to the prom wearing a tux (as a girl) or a dress (as a boy). So what happens...no prom ( I think some parents and CELEBRITIES got together and had one off campus, because the money flows when the key word is mentioned). Real case in Mississippi in 2010.

Why the(fill in irritated words) can't the kid just go to the prom, dressed appropriately like everyone else, and do her/his deeds anyway without making a big, expensive kerfluffle about it?

Thanks for using my tax dollars for that, folks! (Happened in my state too).

 

[parentastic]

Testing, have you actually read the article you provided?
In case you didn't, let me quote a few paragraphs from it:

School officials there are apparently so terrified that the fabric of society will disintegrate if two lesbians attend the prom together that they decided last week to cancel the prom for all students.

Constance McMillen just wanted to enjoy prom night like any other student. She wanted to get dressed up and take her girlfriend to the most important dance of the high school social season.* But school officials told her she could not escort her girlfriend to the prom, and that she would be thrown out of the dance if students complained.

If the schoolboard has simply done nothing special, then the prom would have happened absolutely normally.
A young lesbian would have come to the prom in a tux and danse with her girlfriend, just like any other young graduate. End of story, case close, no extra dollars spent by anyone.
Big deal!

If people like you were not so set on pushing your values on others, on preventing them to live their life normally, then there would be no issue.
The reason tax dollars were spent is because the school board was DISCRIMINATORY, and what they did, by marginalizing this lesbian student, is illegal - so they were called on it and sued for it.

Like I said.
Live and let live.

Why do you care how a kid decudes to dress at a prom anyway? Seriously! Who is impacting who here - the kis who dresses a certain way fir her prom or the bigots who'd rather cancel an entier prom for fear of homosexuality?

 

[momtoallkids]

This is a debate older than me. Its specifically in response to a request from a thread discussing gay and lesbian.

My personal opinion goes something like this.

I believe that a persons sexuality is a combination of both. I think at some level that Kinsely scale is probably kinda accurate. But I also think it is theory. A well established and researched theory, still a theory. I think if your not at the extreme ends of the scale nurture can play a significant roll in the road you choose. And that if you are closer to the middle (of the scale) I would say it can be a choice. While I believe that your foundation of wants will likely remain the same. The compromises to those foundations can adjusted depending on your environment. I.E. available partners, peer approvial, ect.

I believe that even while the research done may show support for one theory or another. That at this point they are still theories.

I believe that I will love my kids regardless. And that this particular issue would not warrant much consideration from me in that regard.

i have alot of gay friends and from personal experiance, they were born that way. each of them came from some of the most respected families around. many of which were your average 2 parent church going well rounded families and most of the time, even the parents realized from a young age that this was how their child was going to be. so on the gay note, im going to have to go with nature. however i did notice that out of my friends that were bisexual... alot of that had to do with other friends or a slew of bad relationships with the oposite sex. girls especially. its common for girls to experament with each other, some stick with it. i have also had friends that started out in your normal man/woman relationship but over time decided to switch teams due to giving up on the opposite sex becasue of being treated badly.

just another note, as for nature vs nurture when it comes to the gay topic, my daughter has this little boyfriend (they agreed to marry each other when she was a little over 2 and it has stayed that way since lol) who was adopted by a lesbian couple. that couple has actually adopted like 3 or 4 boys as well as fostering more. all of the boys are just your normal run of the mill boys that like girls and do boy things ect. the way i see it if a child is going to grow up to bat for the other team then its going to happen no matter what you do to sway them the other way. it drives me nuts when parents disown their children over their sexual preferance. they are still your child no matter how you cut it. you shouldnt stop loving them becasue of who they decided to love.

my best friend just came out over xmas to his parents. and to be honest i had to out him becasue i got tired of his moms frantic phonecalls thinking that he was on drugs because of all secrets. when i told his parents that he was gay, their responce? " its about time he came out with it, we've known for 21 years lol"

 

[Testing]

parentastic: Testing, have you actually read the article you provided?
In case you didn't, let me quote a few paragraphs from it:

If the schoolboard has simply done nothing special, then the prom would have happened absolutely normally.

Of course. I chose it specifically because it is an extremely liberally-biased article, lest I be accused of not being fair-handed. Often there IS no information on some subjects in mainstream media because it has been silenced. So it is either rightist or leftist. This one is leftist. It is Ms Magazine!

But the facts remain the same. The girl was NOT prohibited from attending the prom in any way. She simply couldn't attend wearing men's clothing. She could have gone, but she had to make a big issue of it (not the school board. This had been policy forever).

Your statement should read; If the GIRL had demanded nothing special that she knew would be in violation of school policy and community standards, the prom would have occurred naturally, as it has every other year.

If people like you were not so set on pushing your values on others, on preventing them to live their life normally, then there would be no issue.

I'm pushing it on NOBODY. This is an uphill battle that conservatives have already lost in this world. I'm simply not going to be silenced here (unless they choose to ban me or something) and prevented from sharing my non-politically correct, nonmainstream view.

The reason tax dollars were spent is because the school board was DISCRIMINATORY, and what they did, by marginalizing this lesbian student, is illegal - so they were called on it and sued for it.

Absolutely false. The school board did NOTHING different to this girl that was not applicable to every girl on the school campus. She was not singled out or discriminated against in any way. The school board did not declare that everyone but (this girl's name) could attend the prom. That would be discriminatory.

Like I said.
Live and let live.

Exactly. She could go to her prom and hook up with her paramour there. No problem. She just couldn't violate the dress code.

 

[cybele]

I went to my Catholic, all girls, run by nuns high school's formal in pants. No one, not even crazy Sister Josephine batted an eyelid. She did tell me off for eating too many of the chocolates though, grumpy woman.

Must have been an 80s thing then...

 

[Cedar]

i have alot of gay friends and from personal experiance, they were born that way. each of them came from some of the most respected families around. many of which were your average 2 parent church going well rounded families...

I can't help but think that your sentiment expressed above echoes a lot of the stereotypes associated with being homosexual. As if you have to come from a tortured and abused household to be gay. What does "respected families" mean exactly? There are stereotypes about spoiled brats from high income families growing up with silver spoons and throwing their lives away on drugs or not making much of their lives because they took so much for granted.
"Church going"? If anything, I think most religion creates a lot of the social issues our culture suffers from. I don't find fault with the fundamental tenants of the most common religions in our culture, similar to the fundamental laws of our country. But the kind of alienation, judgement and intolerance that is often expressed by religious people is highly offensive in my view. To say that if one is church going, they should be well adjusted or "normal" is not very accurate.
But that is my opinion and I don't mean offense if you happen to be religious.
I heard someone say this recently and it made me laugh: "If there is a God, why did he make me an athiest?"

 

[Cedar]

Why can't the kid just go to the prom, dressed appropriately ...

"Appropriately" is based on peoples' judgements. Not everyone feels the same or should feel the same about everything. Times change. There was a time when women didn't wear pants, but now they do. So who draws the line of appropriate? Sure, schools can make rules around certain dress codes in daily school life. But I remember my peers taking many creative liberties with the way they dressed at prom. Some dressed like pimps to be funny or try to be clever or unique. If a guy wants to wear a dress to make a statement, so what? The whole thing is pretty ridiculous if you as me. Being 16 or 17 and spending all that money to rent a tux and a limo. Or for girls buying a dress you'll never wear again.
School is a place to learn. And sometimes kids learn sooner than others that it is OK to be different. If other students can see that and learn from it, rather than be sheep, great. That's progress!

 

[parentastic]

She could have gone, but she had to make a big issue of it (not the school board. This had been policy forever).Your statement should read; If the GIRL had demanded nothing special that she knew would be in violation of school policy and community standards, the prom would have occurred naturally, as it has every other year.

With this kind of argument, black people would still have to sit in their own side of the buses and go to their own toilets in America. It had been "policy" for a long time too, before a black woman was courageous enough to "make a big issue out of it". It was racist to maintain the apartheid, she fought for it, and today we recognize that black people have the same right as white people and cannot be excluded from anywhere on the basis of their skin color.

So is heterosexism. This young woman can love whoever she wants; the charter of rights guarantees that one cannot discriminate against her (exclude her) on the basis of her sexual orientation, which is exactly what the prom school board is doing when they want to "force" her to dress "accordingly" to their own norm, singling her out of her fundamental right to live the same experience than her peers with her partner, regardless of her gender.

The school board did NOTHING different to this girl that was not applicable to every girl on the school campus. The school board did not declare that everyone but (this girl's name) could attend the prom. She could go to her prom and hook up with her paramour there. No problem. She just couldn't violate the dress code.

The bus driver excluding the black woman (unless she accept to sit in the "black" area) did NOTHING different to this black women that was not applicable to every black woman in the city, either.
The transport company did not declare that everyone but (this black women name) could get in the bus. She could go and take her bus. No problem. She just couldn't violate the apartheid code.

I think what is astonishing to me is that you seem so entrenched in your heterosexism and your discrimination that you genuinely don't seem to see it. Seems that the law didn't agree with you either, since the organizers had to shut down the prom since they couldn't stop her from dressing the way she wanted.

To be clear, if it was not already:
In a prom, two young persons, in couple, go dance with each other, fully dressed for the occasion. These two young person did, and were prevented from it, on the basis of their sexual orientation. THAT is where the discrimination is.

This is an uphill battle that conservatives have already lost in this world.

White supremacists spoke just that way of their "battle" to keep black people out of "their" community.

I'm simply not going to be silenced here (unless they choose to ban me or something) and prevented from sharing my non-politically correct, nonmainstream view.

You are free to display your heterosexism and your discrimnatory views for the world to see. Just don't be surprised when people call you on it.

She could go to her prom and hook up with her paramour there. No problem. She just couldn't violate the dress code.

You do realize, as someone else pointed out above, that students get dressed in different or unique ways every time at all proms, and they are never excluded or prevented from attending? She was excluded <I>specifically on the basis of her sexual orientation</I> because she decided to dress <I>with man cloths</I> while being a girl. Nobody here is stupid. We perfectly know, you and I and all the readers that she was not simply excluded for violating the dress code. Let's at least be honest here.

 

[parentastic]

I can't help but think that your sentiment expressed above echoes a lot of the stereotypes associated with being homosexual. As if you have to come from a tortured and abused household to be gay. What does "respected families" mean exactly?

I think what momtoallkids is saying here is simply that you cannot pretend that gay/lesbian people "happen" only in families in which there are "happy gays/lesbians loving each others" around to "influence" the "malleable" sexuality of youngsters, as Testing believes: even in "respected families" (in Testing views) where people go to church and all, children can and have been born gay too, which tends to show that it is something you are born with, not something you grow or become influenced from your environment.

She was just responding to Testing's arguments, IMO, not saying that gays come only from these households.

 

[Cedar]

She was just responding to Testing's arguments, IMO, not saying that gays come only from these households.

I see.

 

[singledad]

I've never met anyone of any gender or sexual orientation who claimed that they chose to fall in love with their partner. Sure, you choose to maary someone, but chosing to marry someone you are not already in love with, can only lead to problems. I know for a fact that I didn't choose to fall in love with my wife - I just did. So what would I have done if she was a man? I don't know. Given the general levels of intollerance around, I'm glad I never found myself attracted to another man.

I think you can choose to experiment with having sex with the same sex, or to live a life-style commonly associated with a specific sexual orientation, but homosexuality is not just about sex and parties. It's about people who connect and love each other like a husband and wife, who happens to be the same sex. Logically, I can't see how this is a choice.

 

[bssage]

Testing

Probably not the best argument.

While I understand why some dress codes are in place. I dont see that these girls intended on violating the acceptable implied reason for the code. Which should have been to keep the dance formal. If I read correctly they did intend on formal wear. Even from my point of view this was a weakly veiled form of discrimination.

And I think the comment about "Rich" or "Church going" folk. Also refers to two groups who have access to resources which could be used to counter gay. Which has no statistical evidence of success.

I think what is astonishing to me is that you seem so entrenched in your heterosexism and your discrimination

You are free to display your heterosexism and your discrimnatory views for the world to see. Just don't be surprised when people call you on it.

Is this nessasary??

 

[Mom2all]

I can not believe that I have ignored this for so long. Not my nature. But here I go.....:arghh:

Born with it, choose it, gay gene... really does it matter? What someone else chooses to do in their bedroom is NON of anyones business. Why would anyone get into specifics with a child about anything like that to begin with. You don't have to. "Its just the way he/she is" is quite enough to satisfy most questions. Your child will not become a homosexual because they see it.. so why would an explanation on how someone else has become gay important to your child growing up? Its like explaining different races.. "Why is their skin darker Mommy?" "People come in all different packages dear.. how boring would it be if we were all alike?"

My children have been raised being around my cousin who is gay. Flamboyant and fun. He has been the way he is since he was 2. I never remember them asking at all why he was the way he was, they just love Michael. Non of them as far as I know were influenced by his choices... and being that most of mine are grown I'm sure they've realized that his boyfriend is not just a pal he hangs out with. Guess what.. he's still just Michael.. boy cousin, friend when needed, painted finger nails, fairy wings Halloween costume wearing Micheal.

Look for content of character instead of the outside appearance children... thats what we need to concentrate on. When we can stop worrying about what makes us different and just enjoy that our differences make us colorful, this world will be such a prettier place.

 

[parentastic]

Your child will not become a homosexual because they see it.. so why would an explanation on how someone else has become gay important to your child growing up?

hey, I am all there right with you M2all.
Sadly, some people like Testing seems to be convinced that a child can become homosexual because they see it - that, as Testing was saying somewhere else here, that if they grow up around happy gays loving each other, that would somehow push them toward these "choices".

Hence the pertinence of this debate, and why it is both a huge disservice to gay community AND completely wrong to pretend we aren't all born with their sexual orientation, IMO.

Its like explaining different races.. "Why is their skin darker Mommy?" "People come in all different packages dear.. how boring would it be if we were all alike?" Look for content of character instead of the outside appearance children... thats what we need to concentrate on. When we can stop worrying about what makes us different and just enjoy that our differences make us colorful, this world will be such a prettier place.

Amen to that!