Nature vs nurture....

[Testing]

mom2many: I am a staunch supporter of Gay rights. I believe they are born that way and outside influence be damn.

However, your points are also correct. That is not what nature intended, you are right that our reproductive organs have a purpose, and at the end of the day they are created for reproduction. The fact that is enjoyable is a bonus (thankfully). Like you said though, nature does show us that these genetic anomalies do exist. No matter where you stand in the debate these facts can not be ignored. I also agree that no one <I>has </I>to act on their feelings, but I believe that people have a right to be happy. Whatever that is so long as it doesn't break any laws. Not religious laws, peoples beliefs are personal and should stay that way. I firmly believe religion should have no role in any government.

Now this is exactly the sort of rhetoric that I was hoping for and expecting on a Debate forum! We disagree on a point or two, but civilly and without personal attack. Awesome.

This is why I asked you to break it down. I felt that to much of your opinion was being lost in the debate when at it's core it is not an incorrect view. Just being pushed to the point that you were not getting a fair representation.

I appreciate that. I much prefer to debate on the merits.

I do not like to see the rep buttons abused....that goes for anyone

Thank you. I can't imagine using that for disagreement only. "Your mother is a blankety blank", maybe, though I'd be much more likely to just point out the irrelevance of the personal attack.

So everyone who responded emotionally to give me negative marks should rationally reverse their reputation score, as I have not violated the guidelines of the forums.

Or you could all just associate with those who agree with you all the time, but what fun would that be?

 

[mom2many]

Thank you. I can't imagine using that for disagreement only. "Your mother is a blankety blank", maybe, though I'd be much more likely to just point out the irrelevance of the personal attack.

So everyone who responded emotionally to give me negative marks should rationally reverse their reputation score, as I have not violated the guidelines of the forums.

Or you could all just associate with those who agree with you all the time, but what fun would that be?

LOL ideally that would be nice wouldn't it?

I must go fee my chicklin's if I hear "I am hungry" one more time my head my start spinning

 

[bssage]

I agree with what M2m said. While I am not really in testings camp. I think testing has made some very valid points along the way. I think it would go a long way toward keeping things civil If even when its an opposing view. A little acknowledgment when a good point is made. And this should go both ways. I am only using testing as a example because that is the "hot ticket" of the day.

Now for you nature folks. If we believe the Kinsly scale. Then we would have to acknowledge that there are people in the middle of the scale ( who's bias is not as great in either direction) That nurture could determine the outcome. Is that not a fair statement? Because if its not a fair statment then the only other possible answer I can think of is that they must bisexual.

So while it may be fair to say most/a lot/a majority, of homosexuals are born that way. It would not be fair to say all Homosexuals are born that way.

 

[singledad]

Considering that I'm probably considered to be one of those who got heated, I feel I should respond.

Saying that it goes against your religion I can respect, even if I don't necessarily agree with it. If you had just said it, and left it at that, than I don't think this thread would have gone nearly as far as it had. I respect every person's right to follow his chosen religion, as long as it doesn't harm anyone. And as long as you keep in mind that insisting that others follow your personal set of religious morals and values, is bound to cause trouble.

Having read through the last few pages again, I tend to agree with Mom2all - why can't we just respect other people, and stop insisting that everyone conform to what we think is good and right? And why is it necessary to drag the whole community through the mud by bringing up predatory teens, and lewd comments made about younger children, as if these things are somehow representative of the gay community. Why can't you accept that the vast majority of gay people are just ordinary people, going about their lives, minding their own business, who just want society to give them and their relationships the same kind of respect everyone else gets? I don't think they are asking for your approval - just respect.

 

[singledad]

So while it may be fair to say most/a lot/a majority, of homosexuals are born that way. It would not be fair to say all Homosexuals are born that way.

I believe we should always p) be careful when we use the words "all", "none", "always", "never", etc. They are rarely true.

 

[cybele]

I think you are 100% correct singledad.

 

[Testing]

singledad:
Saying that it goes against your religion I can respect, even if I don't necessarily agree with it. If you had just said it, and left it at that, than I don't think this thread would have gone nearly as far as it had.

But there is a reason why scripture tells us not to do this. It isn't just a baseless statement declared just to ruin the fun for people. To simply say, "My religion prohibits this." does not address the issue.

I respect every person's right to follow his chosen religion, as long as it doesn't harm anyone. And as long as you keep in mind that insisting that others follow your personal set of religious morals and values, is bound to cause trouble.

Agreed. Which is why I was not "insisting that others follow", as if I have the power to do that, anyway. Others can do whatever the hell they want, and reap what they sow, as we all will. But I'm also done with remaining silent, while giving the requisite politically-correct nod of approval. There is much pressure here in my large, politically-correct city to do this.

And why is it necessary to drag the whole community through the mud by bringing up predatory teens, and lewd comments made about younger children, as if these things are somehow representative of the gay community.

They are representative of what I'm seeing here in the teens, unfortunately. If you don't - or if you refuse to see that - good for you, I guess. I'm thinking you don't have teens, so you aren't paying attention. I would ask why it is necessary to avoid speaking the truth, and pretending the community does not contain flippers and predatory teens (who most certainly were victims of other predatory adults)?

Edited to add: Oh yes, you have one 5 year old. I didn't notice this stuff then either.

 

[mom2many]

God I am getting lazy lol

But there is a reason why scripture tells us not to do this. It isn't just a baseless statement declared just to ruin the fun for people. To simply say, "My religion prohibits this." does not address the issue.

The problem, in my opinion, with using scripture is that it is a belief, a faith. Scripture is left to interpretation and each faith will interpret it differently. Scripture is not fact, but above that when I think of the bible I do not think of a God who condemns those he placed on this earth. God gave us the greatest gift he could...free will. He gave humans the ability to choose their course in life. Our lives can be full of disdain or we can "Love thy neighbors". That is our choice to make. By saying what other people do with their lives is their business, does not mean that you want to live that way. It does not have an effect on your religious beliefs, you are free to live those beliefs any way you choose. Now loving people and accepting people in spite of what one might see as a flaw does not mean you condone the action, it means that in spite of who or what they are they are valued.

The truth is most of us (religious people included) break some form of "rule" placed on society in the name of scripture. No one person lives their lives solely based off of the bible. We are all, even the most stout Christian/Jew/Hindu break some form of scripture.If I believed in God, he would be a lot more forgiving then most people make him out to be

Agreed. Which is why I was not "insisting that others follow", as if I have the power to do that, anyway. Others can do whatever the hell they want, and reap what they sow, as we all will. But I'm also done with remaining silent, while giving the requisite politically-correct nod of approval. There is much pressure here in my large, politically-correct city to do this.

Again, accepting people just for who they are is not remaining silent. It is letting people be themselves and live their lives (which have no effect on any one individual) and to be happy.



They are representative of what I'm seeing here in the teens, unfortunately. If you don't - or if you refuse to see that - good for you, I guess. I'm thinking you don't have teens, so you aren't paying attention. I would ask why it is necessary to avoid speaking the truth, and pretending the community does not contain flippers and predatory teens (who most certainly were victims of other predatory adults)?

I am not even remotely sure what you are talking about here. I have raised 4 teens with 4 more headed that way. Being a predator has nothing to do with being gay/straight, religious/non religious. Predators are people with mental illness, where are you that this is the correlation that you came up with such a thing?

Edited to add: Oh yes, you have one 5 year old. I didn't notice this stuff then either.

This is the kinda comment I was talking about yesterday. The thread is pushing a lot of my patience.

 

[Mom2all]

Okay Testing.. I have very strong beliefs also. For that.. I'll stand on my soap box and spew forth things that my spiritual feelings dictate.

<U>Matthew 7:1-5</U> Judge not, that ye be not judged.
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

<U> James 2:10</U> For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

All that to say this... if you use the scripture to justify why you can judge others for their "sins" than you are no better than those you judge. I'm sure your Bible indicates that. It makes me angry that people use the Bible to justify ugly feelings they want to express. If you condemn someone.. you will be condemned by that same standard.. and PS. No one sin is greater than another. I wish we'd all stop throwing stones.

I think this thread got way out of hand because some took up the issue of not what we should tell our children, but what we should believe about homosexuality. And those of us who see people as just people.. are offended at the way homosexuals are depicted.

My cousin, he served in the military. Very Patriotic.
He took over the care of my Grandma when she became sick. Day in and day out he stayed with her for months. Very compassionate.
He has a wonderful sense of style. Always handsome.
And loves to tell a joke. So very funny.

By your standards... I can take the image that a few young people on the internet or in the news and base my opinions for the whole.

So I should say... goodness... if only we had more gay people in the world, we'd have people that defend their country, are compassionate to others, are very funny, handsome and dress well doing it. How could we ask for anything better in our young people?

But I am no fool. Michael's character has nothing to do with his sexual orientation. And his sexual orientation has nothing to do with his character.

And about the earlier comment about not using the example about race... Its about the stereotype of a group of people. Race, religion, sexual orientation, hell even geography play a role in that. So yes.. its all relative.

And yes.. I am the mother of teenagers. 21,20,19,17,15, and 13. All of them have been around gay people. None of them indicate anything other than the usual drive for contact with the opposite sex. 2 in fact are driven a little more than I'd like. That being said.. I have very often caught my heterosexual boys and their friends making very derogatory comments about women/girls. ( and yes I hammer them for it) Its not a gay girl thing. Its a nasty, teenage, hormonal, don't think I'll get caught by an adult thing to say. I'm pretty sure, if the truth here is told, everyone of us at some point has said... "Man I'd like to have some of that" to a friend. I'd say thats vulgar and foul. But I'm guilty. And chances are, so are you.

 

[mom2many]

Mom2all...I think you have said it best!

 

[Testing]

Mom2all: Okay Testing.. I have very strong beliefs also. For that.. I'll stand on my soap box and spew forth things that my spiritual feelings dictate.

<U>Matthew 7:1-5</U> Judge not, that ye be not judged.
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

<U>James 2:10</U> For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

I could do dueling scriptures. I won't, don't worry.

No point.

But I am not judging MY BROTHER. I am judging a BEHAVIOR and finding it lacking.

If I presented a case against why one should not engage (and what is wrong with) hiding things from your family, fudging on your taxes, looking at someone else's paper during a test, having a sexual relationship with someone other than your spouse, abusing children, or any number of behaviors, most likely no one would take issue with it.

But this behavior gets special, protected status. I find that perplexing.

All that to say this... if you use the scripture to justify why you can judge others for their "sins" than you are no better than those you judge.

Oh, I'm no better than anybody. But at least I'm honest about where my behaviors do not benefit myself or others and why they are prohibited.

And I am NOT judging "others". I am judging homosexual <U>behavior in exactly the same way I would judge any other behavior outside marriage as defined by God.</U>

I'm sure your Bible indicates that. It makes me angry that people use the Bible to justify ugly feelings they want to express.

Ugly feelings like:
<SIZE size="4">18 </SIZE>For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, <SIZE size="4">19 </SIZE>because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown <I>it</I> to them. <SIZE size="4">20 </SIZE>For since the creation of the world His invisible <I>attributes</I> are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, <I>even</I> His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, <SIZE size="4">21 </SIZE>because, although they knew God, they did not glorify <I>Him</I> as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. <SIZE size="4">22 </SIZE>Professing to be wise, they became fools, <SIZE size="4">23 </SIZE>and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
<SIZE size="4">24 </SIZE>Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, <SIZE size="4">25 </SIZE>who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
<SIZE size="4">26 </SIZE>For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. <SIZE size="4">27 </SIZE>Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.


ALL of the following behaviors are bad and not in our best interest; yes, even the ones I have done myself! I don't pick and choose, and say that some are fine, because I have done them. At least I'm honest about that.
<SIZE size="4">28 </SIZE>And even as they did not like to retain God in <I>their</I> knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; <SIZE size="4">29 </SIZE>being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; <I>they are</I> whisperers, <SIZE size="4">30 </SIZE>backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, <SIZE size="4">31 </SIZE>undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving unmerciful; <SIZE size="4">32 </SIZE>who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

If you condemn someone.. you will be condemned by that same standard.. and PS. No one sin is greater than another. I wish we'd all stop throwing stones.

Agreed. That's why I don't condemn anyone. It isn't my job. I have enough on my plate just keeping up with my own stuff. But I'm not going to excise some sins from scripture and pretend they don't exist either when others discuss it either. My own or anyone else's. That would be hypocritical.

I think this thread got way out of hand because some took up the issue of not what we should tell our children, but what we should believe about homosexuality. And those of us who see people as just people.. are offended at the way homosexuals are depicted.

You are assuming that I don't see people as people, with all their warts and foibles. That is wrong. I do. I just don't believe in situational faith. If something is wrong, it is wrong, period, whether I do it or someone else does it.

My cousin, he served in the military. Very Patriotic.
He took over the care of my Grandma when she became sick. Day in and day out he stayed with her for months. Very compassionate.
He has a wonderful sense of style. Always handsome.
And loves to tell a joke. So very funny.

Um, ok? I'm sure he is a great guy. And...
What does this have to do with this discussion? I have a few relatives I could tell you about but you probably aren't interested...?

So I should say... goodness... if only we had more gay people in the world, we'd have people that defend their country, are compassionate to others, are very funny, handsome and dress well doing it. How could we ask for anything better in our young people?

Ah, I presume aforesaid cousin is gay, then? You didn't mention it above so it was confusing. And so? How is your "here is a perfect gay guy who happens to be my cousin" argument any more persuasive than "here is what is going on with bunches of teens on the internet"?

You can give your example and suggest that it is widely applicable but I cannot even mention it? How is that ok?

And yes.. I am the mother of teenagers. 21,20,19,17,15, and 13.

Well, good for you. I'm sure you have wisdom to share with all that experience that can benefit the rest of us that aren't quite to adult stage yet.

All of them have been around gay people.

So have mine, for good or ill. As if this could or should be avoided. We live in this world, in this political environment.

None of them indicate anything other than the usual drive for contact with the opposite sex. 2 in fact are driven a little more than I'd like. That being said.. I have very often caught my heterosexual boys and their friends making very derogatory comments about women/girls. ( and yes I hammer them for it) Its not a gay girl thing. Its a nasty, teenage, hormonal, don't think I'll get caught by an adult thing to say.

Perhaps. It is just so OUT there today. At least we kept our business to ourselves back in the day.

I'm pretty sure, if the truth here is told, everyone of us at some point has said... "Man I'd like to have some of that" to a friend.

I can honestly say I have never uttered words along that line. Have I experienced temptation in my mind/heart? Sure. I'm human. Have I put it out there, for the discomfort/exploitation of others? No.

Back to the "keep your business to yourself" and do what you are called to do. Want scripture for that?

<I>But I tell you, on the day of judgment men will have to give account for every idle (inoperative, nonworking) word they speak. For by your words you will be justified and acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned and sentenced. (Matthew 12:36-37 Amplified Bible)</I>

<I>Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. (Galatians 6:7-8 King James Version)</I>

 

[Mom2all]

I just felt a stone thrown my way.

My cousin, he served in the military. Very Patriotic.
He took over the care of my Grandma when she became sick. Day in and day out he stayed with her for months. Very compassionate.
He has a wonderful sense of style. Always handsome.
And loves to tell a joke. So very funny.

Um, ok? I'm sure he is a great guy. And...
What does this have to do with this discussion? I have a few relatives I could tell you about but you probably aren't interested...?

It Doesn't. Him being a great guy is completely separate from the issue at hand. He is one among thousands of good guys.

Quote:
So I should say... goodness... if only we had more gay people in the world, we'd have people that defend their country, are compassionate to others, are very funny, handsome and dress well doing it. How could we ask for anything better in our young people?

Ah, I presume aforesaid cousin is gay, then? You didn't mention it above so it was confusing. And so? How is your "here is a perfect gay guy who happens to be my cousin" argument any more persuasive than "here is what is going on with bunches of teens on the internet"?

You can give your example and suggest that it is widely applicable but I cannot even mention it? How is that OK?

My point exactly. My cousin being a good person.. is separate from him being gay. As separate as your pedophile is from the gay population.


Here is where I will beg off this conversation. Sometimes its best to do as I have just suggested to you... and keep my opinions about someones behavior to myself when it doesn't directly effect me. How you feel doesn't effect me, so why should I let that make me angry? I hope you find some peace.

 

[cybele]

Im not going to get into the scripture battle, 12 years of strict Catholic schooling has left me more than capable of it, however I find that its just a one-sided argument to something that has very many sides, with all due respect, not everyone is Catholic, regardless of what is in the Bible, what one religion is practicing and believes shouldnt dictate a world-wide social issue, in my opinion.

Perhaps. It is just so OUT there today. At least we kept our business to ourselves back in the day.

This I actually agree with you on. I dont agree with the over-verbalisation of sexuality nowadays. Im not talking about facts or sex ed, im talking about "I have a crush on this individual, so im going to write a blog post detailing every sexual thing I would like to do to them" mentality. I think weve seen with the amount of kids who have gotten themselves into trouble with naked photos on phones / on the internet that it might be time to tone the sexuality down a bit.

I think most people have said crude, overtly sexual things at some point in their lives, the difference is that for most of us "older folk" :laugh: its been said behind closed doors where it cant come back up to bite us in the butt.

And I think it is a really important issue, that would be appropriate in another thread, as it is not specific to homosexuals and to pretend that it is just shields half the issue.


Im going to follow Mom2all and bow out of any further discussion on "gay behaviour" Testing, despite you saying that youre not throwing stones, im finding a lot of the things youre saying very attacking and very disrespectful, and I know that im easily riled up so im going to leave it be for now.

 

[singledad]

But there is a reason why scripture tells us not to do this. It isn't just a baseless statement declared just to ruin the fun for people. To simply say, "My religion prohibits this." does not address the issue.

Which issue? That homosexuality is sin (according to YOUR faith) or that love between consenting adults you haven't even met, somehow harms you?

Agreed. Which is why I was not "insisting that others follow",

No. You weren't insisting that they follow. You were just advocating denying them the freedom to NOT follow. I don't see the difference.

They are representative of what I'm seeing here in the teens, unfortunately. If you don't - or if you refuse to see that - good for you, I guess.

Yes, In the teens. And in adults. And in blacks, whites, Jews, Christians, Atheists, accountants, policemen, people who like quilting... just about any group of people. I don't see how this is relevant in a debate about homosexuality. Now, if we were talking about protecting our children from the bad influences they will be exposed to in their lives, these things would perhaps be relevant.

I'm thinking you don't have teens, so you aren't paying attention.

Edited to add: Oh yes, you have one 5 year old. I didn't notice this stuff then either.

If you were naive when your kids were small, please don't paint me with the same brush. You know nothing about me or my life.

I would ask why it is necessary to avoid speaking the truth, and pretending the community does not contain flippers and predatory teens (who most certainly were victims of other predatory adults)?

Wrong. At most 10% of children who were victimized become predators themselves. Conversely, around 30% of sexual predators were abused as children. Far from a majority. Studies on sex-offenders in prisons have reported higher percentages, but in one specific study the percentage fell from 70% to under 30% the moment the inmates were told they'd have to take a lie-detector test. Of course, they would all like to claim that they were abused - it gives them an excuse.

The fact is: being abused does not make you a predator, and it doesn't make you gay.

Please stop perpetuating this terrible myth - it just makes it harder for abused children to speak up, and it makes life hell for those who do finally work up the courage...

But I am not judging MY BROTHER. I am judging a BEHAVIOR and finding it lacking.

Great. Now take one more step and start judging the BEHAVIOUR of INDIVIDUALS, in stead of judging entire groups of people on the behaviour of a few individuals. That's called prejudice, and even though I don't know the Bible as well as you do, I'm sure it doesn't condone prejudice.

PS: I don't really know why I'm bothering to post this... I'm breaking my policy of not arguing with drunk people, political extremists or religious fanatics. You need reason on both sides of an argument to accomplish something

 

[Cedar]

In the interest of salvaging the point of the thread, maybe it would be more useful not to engage in this kind of arguing. It is dominating the thread and probably turning off people. Frankly I am tired of getting notifications to new posts being arguments with Testing. I am however interested in seeing fresh opinions from other people.

Some people have different views. Sometimes they change, sometimes it takes a whole lot more than a few posts on a forum.

 

[Testing]

singledad: Which issue? That homosexuality is sin (according to YOUR faith) or that love between consenting adults you haven't even met, somehow harms you?

I won't get into the physical damage caused by some of the practices. You can google that yourself.

"Love" doesn't harm anyone, but we aren't talking about love here. We are talking about sexual behavior (unless we are talking about celibate individuals). Counterfeit "marriages" harm everyone, just like counterfeit money harms everyone, though it may not harm me today. There are standards that regulate every society. I cannot suddenly decide that my children are emancipated at the age of 6 because this is my personal feeling of what is right. It doesn't matter; I am still a parent of minor children and responsible until they are of age. From time immemorial, in every society marriage has been between a man and a woman, and there is no society that altered this immutable concept and survived.

No. You weren't insisting that they follow. You were just advocating denying them the freedom to NOT follow. I don't see the difference.

On the contrary, you (and those who agree) are advocating that special rights now exist for individuals who have proclaimed themselves a special category, and not subject to the rules governing society and family. You are advocating the redefinition of marriage, of family, of Mom and Dad.

Yes, In the teens. And in adults. And in blacks, whites, Jews, Christians, Atheists, accountants, policemen, people who like quilting... just about any group of people. I don't see how this is relevant in a debate about homosexuality. Now, if we were talking about protecting our children from the bad influences they will be exposed to in their lives, these things would perhaps be relevant.

And the relevance is? There ARE bad influences in this gay community, as in others. We can't just disregard that because it doesn't suit our political stance. Head in the sand mentality really doesn't work here.

If you were naive when your kids were small, please don't paint me with the same brush. You know nothing about me or my life.

I know you are a single dad with one small child (assuming your truthfulness). That could be very relevant if you have no teens and no idea how things have deteriorated in the cesspools we call schools today.

Wrong. At most 10% of children who were victimized become predators themselves. Conversely, around 30% of sexual predators were abused as children. Far from a majority.

I love it when people assert, "Wrong!" and then follow with an unsubstantiated opinion. That screams..."Right!".

Link?

Here's some actual evidence from a compilation of JAMA articles, one of many:

According to a <I>JAMA</I> review of literature re the sexual abuse of boys, (basically indicating 27% of girls have been abused and 16% of boys) of boys only 10%-33% of male abuse victims ever tell anyone about that abuse.4 The review also found that: "Abused [male] adolescents, particularly those victimized by males, were up to 7 times more likely to self-identify as gay or bisexual than peers who had not been abused."5 And regarding female abuse victims, one study found that 38% of adult women ages 18-31 who were sexually abused when young [between ages 10 months to 12 years] did not remember that they were sexually abused when young. Jennifer A. Hurley, <I>Child Abuse: Opposing Viewpoints</I> (San Diego: Greenhaven Press, 1999), pp. 113-14.

The fact is: being abused does not make you a predator, and it doesn't make you gay.

A gay activist named Tammy Bruce has stated in her book, The Death of Right and Wrong,
Interesting study. Reminds me of a quote from gay activist / journalist Tammy Bruce from her book “<U>The Death of Right and Wrong</U>”:

Almost without exception, the gay men I know (and that’s too many to count) have a story of some kind of sexual trauma or abuse in their childhood – molestation by a parent or an authority figure, or seduction as an adolescent at the hands of an adult. The gay community must face the truth and see the sexual molestation of an adolescent for the abuse it is, instead of the “coming-of-age” experience many regard it as being.

It makes you more PREDISPOSED to both, statistically. But again....we have choices. It doesn't mean one has to do it, any more than one predisposed to alcoholism ever has to even know it if he doesn't drink, but one may well have more issues in this area because of the predispostion. Gee- ask any abused (not sexually) child if they worry about being a good parent, if they yell too much, or get on the brink of rage. It happens because it was done to them and they have to work harder than another person not exposed in that manner. Choices.
​

Great. Now take one more step and start judging the BEHAVIOUR of INDIVIDUALS, in stead of judging entire groups of people on the behaviour of a few individuals. That's called prejudice, and even though I don't know the Bible as well as you do, I'm sure it doesn't condone prejudice.

This IS the judgment of the behavior of individuals. You could apply this same specious reasoning to anything. "Quit judging alcoholics and whether alcohol is good on the basis of a few people who run down Grandmas." It is STILL not beneficial behavior, even though you were lucky enough, by the grace of God, NOT to have run down any Grandmas....yet.

"Quit judging adulterous behaviors by the few whose spouses find out and it damages their marriages and family relationships!"

"Quit judging all airline passengers by the few who blow up planes!" The TSA isn't buying that one.

"Quit judging pit bull owners by the few whose animals take off their kids' faces!" Statistically, these are dangerous dogs, even though there may be some good ones. This is why they are on "banned dog lists" with many insurance companies.

I'm breaking my policy of not arguing with drunk people, political extremists or religious fanatics. You need reason on both sides of an argument to accomplish something

Yes, you do. Some people simply cannot see or analyze the other side of their pet bias and react in a knee-jerk, emotional way.

But I sometimes engage with them anyway, like here....

 

[mom2many]

I'm gonna agree with Cedar. This thread has strayed way to far off of course. This isn't about nature vs nurture anymore. Frankly it has become a thread...again...about homosexuality.

As moderator I am gonna get the final say and then I am closing this thread down.

People regardless of gender, sexuality, race or religion have the right to live their lives as they see fit under the laws of the land. Religious convictions, at this time, do not dictate (while not discounting the role they do play) governing laws. Everyone is entitle to an opinion, but opinions do not make something fact. I can find anything on any side of the fence to support my view point.

In closing, believe your beliefs. Uphold what <I>you</I> hold as truths, and live your life in the manner that befits those beliefs. As long as the laws of the land are not being broken and no HARM is imposed on another then think of that old song..."Don't Worry Be Happy"!