Not sure what to do with Sasha...

[cybele]

Today I got to have a meeting with the vice principal about Sasha's behaviour. His antics of last week include taking a roll of toilet paper out of the toilets at lunch and eating it for a crowd and attempting to climb through a hole in the fence, where he got stuck and one of the teachers had to cut him out of the fence with wire cutters, again, for a crowd.

His behaviour has always been 'eccentric' but eating toilet paper and getting stuck in a fence is a new low, to be honest. That combined with some of his recent home incidents, riding his bike into the back of my car (I do believe that the crash itself was an accident, but it was a pretty silly act in the first place), getting his foot stuck in the heating duct, getting his arm stuck up a drainpipe. Yes they are curious kid type things, but they're just so frequent.

The school is a little stuck at what to do, they don't believe that there is much of an underlying issue as his school work is pretty much spot on and his general classroom behaviour is great, he listens, he does his work, he interacts well with his teacher and his friends, he just does these ridiculous things that just go beyond normal 5yr old thinks he's funny type stuff.

We have spoken to him so many times about this behaviour and nothing sticks, he thinks it's funny (and the other kids think he's funny) and the school can't be expected to follow him around every free moment he gets to make sure that he doesn't do something ridiculous. I'm just not sure what to do with him to get him to understand that he can be funny without being so ridiculous.

 

[Andrew W.]

and the other kids think he's funny

I've got news for you. If the other kids think he's funny, he's funny. You won't be able to persuade him otherwise, because you're wrong. You can still explain that his behaviour is unacceptable, and try to draw better lines through discussion.

All the getting stuck doesn't sound like it was done for laughs, though, it sounds like he was just exploring. Who wouldn't go through a hole in a fence? If he were a petit girl, he could have explored the fence, the heating duct, and the drain and no one would have noticed.

his school work is pretty much spot on and his general classroom behaviour is great, he listens, he does his work, he interacts well with his teacher and his friends

So he is bright, and he is bored, and he needs something to do with his time, why not eat toilet paper? Right? Anything for a laugh? It sounds like all you need to do is distract him, redirect his energies to something productive.

Maybe get him involved in stage magic, buy him some tricks, teach him some card tricks, watch some performances on line with him. What kid that age isn't fascinated by magicians?

Get him books if he is reading, or maybe get him reading if he isn't already--that would give him something safe to explore.

And focus on the positive things. He sounds like a great kid!

 

[cybele]

I guess I didn't add in that I assume the getting stuck is for laughs rather than a consequence of exploring because the first incident was the drain pipe one, which happened the day after he got out of bed late at night for some water and a few of us were watching Angry Boys in the lounge and were cracking up laughing at one of the characters getting his arm stuck in the drain pipe.

Next day, arm up a drain pipe.

 

[Andrew W.]

Ah, then that is probably for laughs, too.

He likes to make people laugh. He likes to perform. Plus, he isn't really challenged. He's bored. Get him on stage, and let him know what is appropriate in life and what is appropriate on stage differ.

It's going to be hard to beat the positive feedback his friends and classmates are giving him for his antics, though.

 

[IADad]

i like Andrews suggestions for things you could do at home, but that doesn't seem to be much help in the school environment. I doubt they'd be willing to set up an "open mic" in the cafeteria for a little lunchtime standup.

I wonder if he could be given a "job" during times he's most likely to find his way into trouble at school? I'm not suggesting it as a "punishment" but a diversion. Maybe if he was busy doing something (maybe even something he'd really like doing) he might not seek out as much attention from peers.

Sorry, that's all I have. My six year old is cut from a similar weave, but apparently possesses a filter that keeps him within the lines of what we and the school expect, so I can feel your frustration.

 

[MarkLakewood336]

Have you tried disciplining this behavior? Though his behavior is fine at school, it sounds as if he makes too risky and questionable choices perhaps as a direct result of seeking attention from others. Regardless, I think that it is important for you to discipline him when he engages in these type of behaviors. This would discourage the risky behaviors and allow him the opportunity to discover alternative and healthy ways of seeking attention.

 

[cybele]

He does received discipline from both the school (sitting out at lunch) and at home (variety of 'offence-specific' consequences) doesn't seem to phase him in the long term though.

I do like the idea of jobs at school, I will have a chat to his teacher about that this afternoon.

 

[MarkLakewood336]

He does received discipline from both the school (sitting out at lunch) and at home (variety of 'offence-specific' consequences) doesn't seem to phase him in the long term though.

I do like the idea of jobs at school, I will have a chat to his teacher about that this afternoon.

What specific consequence does he get at home for this behavior?

 

[cybele]

Well the bike in car one didn't have a huge consequence, I assumed that the whole hospital and stitches in his face was enough of a lesson. The drainpipe, he is now not allowed down the side of the house and the heating duct he had to clean out all the ducts, if he wanted to play with them he could clean them.

I have to admit, he doesn't go near the ducts anymore, he used to sit on them, so that one worked... sort of.

 

[akmom]

As his classmates' taste in humor matures, I'm sure he will get more refined than eating toilet paper. The behavior sounds like little more than a nuisance. It's not like he is doing anything seriously dangerous or causing serious property damage. And he seems to have a decent grasp on what is the appropriate "time and place" for shenanigans. I mean, a lot of "class clowns" are impulsive and become serious distractions in class. But it sounds like he actually does put some consideration into it, since he does it outside of class, he is able to focus on work when he's not entertaining, and he seems to be hitting the mark for his audience. I mean, some kids have a more desperate approach, and will continue doing random or outrageous things for attention even when they get consistently negative feedback (i.e., no one thought it was funny). Or they will be so consumed by their attempts to be funny (which becomes an annoyance) that they aren't focused at any time.

I think as long as he continues to have consistent, relevant consequences, he'll continue to be aware of boundaries and not escalate. And he'll get more mature just by getting older. I mean, if he tried to eat toilet paper in front of 12-year-olds, he'd probably get a dirty look, and that's not what he's going for, so he'll adjust his act.

 

[MarkLakewood336]

Well the bike in car one didn't have a huge consequence, I assumed that the whole hospital and stitches in his face was enough of a lesson. The drainpipe, he is now not allowed down the side of the house and the heating duct he had to clean out all the ducts, if he wanted to play with them he could clean them.

I have to admit, he doesn't go near the ducts anymore, he used to sit on them, so that one worked... sort of.

These are natural consequences which are appropriate. However, I think that logical consequences for this behavior would be more effective in conjunction with natural consequences. I do not know how old Sasha is but it might not be a bad idea for him to be grounded to the house or a secluded area of your home such as his bedroom for a specific length of time not to exceed 24 hours for this behavior. The logic here is that when he engages in risky and inappropriate behavior for purposes of seeking attention, attention will be withheld from him for a certain length of time. If this type of discipline is imposed consistently on Sasha every time he engages in risky behavior, I believe that his risky behaviors will dissipate.

 

[cybele]

He's nearly 6yrs old, it's not like he has anywhere to go.

 

[MarkLakewood336]

That's not really the point. As long as you select a discipline and are consistent with it, the behavior will go away. In this case, a timeout or a grounding per offense would be appropriate maybe starting with short time intervals and increasing those intervals if the behavior continues. I think that a short stay in his bedroom (grounding) would work. Again, the idea here is to remove his ability to get attention when he engages in risky behaviors to seek attention.

It is equally important to discipline Sasha at home for these type of behaviors at school making sure that the school is aware of this discipline. Oftentimes, when kids know their parents are going to know about and discipline school misbehavior the same day of the occurrence, their behavior at school improves.

 

[cybele]

We established long ago that 'time outs' don't work with Sasha, he is happy to sit alone as he does find ways to entertain himself, from braiding his hair to figuring out how to get his legs behind his head to having a nap.

He plays alone in his room everyday, so spending time alone in there is hardly a punishment.

I'm not trying to be deliberately difficult, it's just that not everything works for every kid, Sash is a kid that we have found that we have to be a bit creative with.

 

[MarkLakewood336]

We established long ago that 'time outs' don't work with Sasha, he is happy to sit alone as he does find ways to entertain himself, from braiding his hair to figuring out how to get his legs behind his head to having a nap.

He plays alone in his room everyday, so spending time alone in there is hardly a punishment.

I'm not trying to be deliberately difficult, it's just that not everything works for every kid, Sash is a kid that we have found that we have to be a bit creative with.

How exactly do you implement a timeout? Braiding hair and getting legs behind the head are not acceptable behaviors in timeout and should not be considered as part of the time. The only behaviors that are acceptable in a timeout is sitting properly facing a wall or corner, hands down to the side, no talking, and other behaviors that you identify. Typically, these become the timeout rules of conduct.

These rules need to be discussed with Sasha before the timeout begins. The time doesn't start until he follows these rules. If he were to break these rules during the timeout, the time should stop and re continue after he follows the rules again as opposed to restarting the entire time which could cause learned helplessness.

He should be given a timeout one minute per year of his age (6 minutes). This is an excellent ADHD technique that really works well on all kids.

You should provide him little to no attention during the timeout Only address rules he breaks in timeout and the timeout procedure. Other than that, give him no attention.

Instead of giving up on the timeout, please give this a try. Schools typically use a similar procedure with their kids. It will be a challenge at first. But you will see behavior change through consistency.

 

[cybele]

Why though?

Seriously, am I to fight him to sit a certain way, with a certain posture, for a period of time facing a wall as a second form of punishment that is entirely unrelated to the 'crime' after he has already received a relevant punishment, creating an argument that didn't exist in the first place for, lets admit it, something relatively minor in terms of behavioural issues?
He got stuck in a fence, no he shouldn't have been in the fence, but it's not as if he caused anyone any harm other than himself.

I have only ever, with all of my kids, used 'time outs' as a time to calm down away from everyone else so we can then discuss the issue and do something relevant to the issue, not a stand alone punishment when they are already calm. They learn nothing from that other than "I don't want to sit in time out". Education is my goal, not control.

 

[IADad]

but...

I get where you're coming from Cybele, but what you've done ins't working, right? That's why you wanted suggestions. I get your point about education versus punishment, but consider (and I'm not saying this is right, but something to think about) that "punishment" - the negative result of an action, whether constructed by us or naturally occurring is a way of teaching that actions have consequences, and programming us to act differently next time, correct? Society isn't likely to just look at him and say "OH, that guys' creative we'll tolerate his disruptions or destruction" (and I'm not saying he was disruptive or destructive, just extending the "what happens if this isn't addressed factor.

So, you as parent, have to option to act on behalf of society, to impose a negative consequence for any action you want changed. So, I don't see enmeshment as necessarily being completely contrary to education. Now, what punishment and how it's carried out is a different manner. I didn't necessarily agree withhh all of Mark's rules ffor timeout, but I do agree that timeout should be a time of restriction from the behavior we want stopped and a time that doesn't allow other "entertainment" i.e. isn't a pleasant/desirable situation.

I had kids stand, with a nose in the corner, never did it that much and haven't used it in years but that was my way of making sure they knew they were in timeout, not just "taking a break to do something different. Seems like their time being introspective was worthwhile.

Just some things to consider.

 

[cybele]

I do want suggestions and have appreciated them, and am planning to try some of the ones mentioned earlier on, I just don't think this one, for small little reasons, is compatible with my household for the reasons I have already stated. I don't believe creating a fight to add an additional punishment on top of a relative punishment makes sense, or that the punishment fits the crime. Nor do I believe Sasha has the personality or mindset to respond to it.

 

[MarkLakewood336]

but...

I get where you're coming from Cybele, but what you've done ins't working, right? That's why you wanted suggestions. I get your point about education versus punishment, but consider (and I'm not saying this is right, but something to think about) that "punishment" - the negative result of an action, whether constructed by us or naturally occurring is a way of teaching that actions have consequences, and programming us to act differently next time, correct? Society isn't likely to just look at him and say "OH, that guys' creative we'll tolerate his disruptions or destruction" (and I'm not saying he was disruptive or destructive, just extending the "what happens if this isn't addressed factor.

So, you as parent, have to option to act on behalf of society, to impose a negative consequence for any action you want changed. So, I don't see enmeshment as necessarily being completely contrary to education. Now, what punishment and how it's carried out is a different manner. I didn't necessarily agree withhh all of Mark's rules ffor timeout, but I do agree that timeout should be a time of restriction from the behavior we want stopped and a time that doesn't allow other "entertainment" i.e. isn't a pleasant/desirable situation.

I had kids stand, with a nose in the corner, never did it that much and haven't used it in years but that was my way of making sure they knew they were in timeout, not just "taking a break to do something different. Seems like their time being introspective was worthwhile.

Just some things to consider.

I could not agree more!

 

[parentastic]

The only behaviors that are acceptable in a timeout is sitting properly facing a wall or corner, hands down to the side, no talking, and other behaviors that you identify. Typically, these become the timeout rules of conduct.
(...)
He should be given a timeout one minute per year of his age (6 minutes).
(...)
You should provide him little to no attention during the timeout Only address rules he breaks in timeout and the timeout procedure. Other than that, give him no attention.

Oh great. Another time-out guru.
I am appalled to see it is still advised, despite the profound attachment issues that it causes on the long run.

A simple article here from Dr. Laura Markham about timeout, What's wrong with time-out.

Instead of giving up on the timeout, please give this a try. Schools typically use a similar procedure with their kids. It will be a challenge at first. But you will see behavior change through consistency.

:no: Please don't.