Not sure what to do with Sasha...

MarkLakewood336

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parentastic said:
Oh great. Another time-out guru.
I am appalled to see it is still advised, despite the profound attachment issues that it causes on the long run. :eek:

A simple article here from Dr. Laura Markham about timeout, What's wrong with time-out.



:no: Please don't.
If you actually read this article, you will find that it is an opinion and not research based. Instead of attacking me, why don't you post something that you believe will help this mother with her child? Isn't that the purpose of these forums??
 

MarkLakewood336

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parentastic said:
Oh great. Another time-out guru.
I am appalled to see it is still advised, despite the profound attachment issues that it causes on the long run. :eek:

A simple article here from Dr. Laura Markham about timeout, What's wrong with time-out.



:no: Please don't.
Instead of posting links to articles that discuss opinions which are virtually worthless, try reading an actual study on the efficiacy of timeouts: http://www.parentdish.com/2011/02/02/time-outs-a-classic-form-of-discipline-that-actually-works/[/url]. This is one study out of a mountain of other studies that proves the efficacy of timeouts.
 
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parentastic

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Mark, I am fully aware of research, as I am a researcher myself. And I am part of the professional field as a family life educator, so I know what I am talking about.

Yes, yes, you can indeed find dozens of studies that promotes the use of time-outs. And yes, totally, they are WAY better than the use of corporal punishments.

Attention, for a child, is a deeply rooted fundamental need. If it is used as a way to manipulate the child's behavior (you call it conditioning) it is also teaching <I>conditional acceptance</I>. And it erodes the attachment between child and parent, shifting it toward an insecure / avoidant attachment pattern. (See the work of Siegel, based on Bowlby and Aisenworth).

The reason it's not yet fully integrated in every possible science paper you find is that behaviorism is firmly implanted (has been for over 50 years, as the oldest branch of psychology). It took behaviorism what - 40 years? to finally agree that corporal punishment is dangerous and that alternatives are required. Meanwhile, attachment theories are comming back in full force in recent studies because the use of neuro-imagery has confirmed what Bowlby et al suspected all these years.

The question "Is timeout effective" is a tricky question, because it assumes we know <I>effective for what?</I>
If by that you mean that timeout is effective at changing a behavior or extinguishing it in a child, then yes. I totally agree - it's VERY effective. It's probably the MOST effective thing you can do, short of using physical punishment, to change a behavior. If someone would threaten to remove your oxygen, you bet you would change your behavior too. But all that assumes that the goal is to change a behavior.

A child is NOT simple a bunch of behaviors.
Behind every behavior there is a root cause. Using timeout to stop a behavior is akin to forcing the emotions and causes to be bottled up and fester inside - while the real issue is still present.

Here is a cover story from one of the professional journal where this issue was addressed, not quantitatively, but qualitatively:

Time out' to correct misbehavior may aggravate it instead. By: Haiman, Peter Ernest, Brown University Child &amp; Adolescent Behavior Letter, 10581073, Oct98, Vol. 14, Issue 10

Reproduced here:
Dr. Peter Ernest Haiman said:
Cries and misbehavior from children and adolescents are very much like a sore throat, aching muscles or a fever. All are symptoms. Ail have causes.

For generations, parents have sought a reliable and dependable way to handle childhood misbehavior. One of the most recent techniques is time-out. Although time-out is better than spanking, it is not an appropriate way to deal with misbehavior, as it may create subsequent childhood behavior problems that can affect a child's well-being and severely strain the parent-child relationship.

Behaviors are symptoms
Children's behaviors are determined, for the most part, by how children feel about the current state of their physical and psychosocial needs. Children feel these needs strongly, and are, by nature, quite sensitive to them. If one or more of their needs are not met, children will soon feel uncomfortable.

When children feel uncomfortable, they cry. Infants' and toddlers' cries announce their feelings of frustration. These cries have evolved as a survival mechanism. They attract parental attention. The purpose of a cry is to obtain the kind and quality of parental love and care that will properly attend to unmet needs and, therefore, establish feelings of security in the child. Older child and adolescent misbehavior serves the same purpose as the baby's cry -- it announces that needs are frustrated.

Cries and misbehavior from children and adolescents are, in a way, very much like a sore throat, stuffed-up nose, aching muscles or a fever. All are symptoms. All have causes. A medical practitioner knows that when the virus or bacteria that is causing physical symptoms is eliminated, the noxious feelings will be quelled. Similarly, when parents correctly diagnose and provide remedies that address the needs of children and adolescents, the symptoms of crying or misbehavior will also disappear.

Unmet needs can be uncomfortable at any age, but it is more so for children due to their dependent nature. Young children lack the ability to meet their own needs, and until a certain age, are physically unable to do most selfcare tasks. Their often intense outbursts stem from this frustrating dependency, coupled with their inability to tolerate frustration well. In addition, infants, toddlers and many preschool-aged children are unable to identify the frustrated needs that are making them upset. This makes it impossible to tell their parents what is bothering them.

Time-out increases frustration
When time-out is used, parents first firmly demand that their child stop misbehaving and be quiet. The child is usually required to go and sit alone in a room, away from parents, and is admonished not to come out of the room until he is sure he can control his behavior. Being placed in time-out prolongs the time that a child must endure the frustrated need that caused the misbehavior. Thus, unmet normal needs become increasingly uncomfortable as the time-out continues.

The fact that the child must be alone and away from the parents he or she depends upon, wants to be with, loves and relies on, exacerbates this increasingly uncomfortable state of being frustrated. Moreover, being alone in time-out can create additional disturbing feelings that the child must endure, such as fear and worry.

A frustrated child who must sit quietly and alone in time-out frequently becomes angry. Although they dare not express this anger when in time-out, children often express it by becoming angry and defiant sometime after being released from time-out.

Frequent time-out has lifelong effects
For the frustrated and uncomfortable child, time-out offers enforced silence and the feeling of being rejected by one's parents. <I>A youngster who misbehaves and then is given time-out feels hurt, which, combined with the frustration that caused the youngster to misbehave, gives birth to anger</I>. Discipline practices that create hurt and anger can harm a child.

Time-out sends the message that one should bottle up uncomfortable emotions. Children desperately need to stop the painful feelings going on inside them when they are upset in time-out and unable to express these feelings. To cope, they learn to ignore and/or distract themselves from the energy of their hurt and angry feelings, and thus, they learn to repress them. In the process, nervous habits emerge, such as thumb sucking, fingernail biting, hair pulling, skin scratching, tugging at clothes, self-pinching and many other similar behaviors. These behaviors serve to ward off uncomfortable feelings and, in identification with their parents' criticism, to punish themselves. Such defense strategies also serve to release anger and ignore uncomfortable feelings.

As a result, being unaware of true feelings often can become a characteristic feature of a person's life. This reduces a person's self-awareness and can affect the quality of life forever.

Developing the well-behaved child
Interpersonal dilemmas and conflicts are best resolved when each individual has sufficient opportunity to talk to and be heard by the other person. Modeling, initiating and practicing the process of open dialogue is essential if a youngster is to learn healthy problem-solving. Helping children talk about how they feel, combined with parental patience, is required if children are to develop the ability to verbalize their feelings and needs rather than act them out.

Parents can develop a well-behaved, self-disciplined child best by responsively and continuously meeting their child's developmentally normal needs and drives; by demonstrating and articulating humane values in day-to-day interactions with their youngster; and by exposing their child to life experiences that strengthen and reinforce these values. Parents who do not meet their child's normal needs and drives consistently and appropriately create troubled and spoiled children.

When children are physically healthy, well-nourished, satisfactorily exercised and not tired, their basic normal physical needs are being met. Their social and emotional needs are fulfilled when they receive sufficient and continuous satisfying attention, affection and recognition from parents and other adults and children to whom the child is emotionally attached. Ifa child's normal curiosity, exploratory nature and intrinsic interests are regularly allowed opportunities to unfold and develop, the intellectual needs of that child will be satisfied. When young children are given opportunities, within a securely supportive and trustworthy environment, to become increasingly more independent, make choices and meaningfully participate in decision-making, their normal need to exercise some control over their life and to express their own will are being appropriately addressed.

It's very important for parents and parents-to-be to learn the developmentally normal characteristics of each stage of early human development. It's also important to recognize a virulent myth that still exists in our society: that fully meeting a child's needs will spoil the child. The research literature clearly says that the opposite is true. The well-disciplined child is created when parents appropriately fulfill the needs of childhood and adolescence.
 

parentastic

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One last comment, Mark.

You display in your signature that you are the CEO of a company who is making their money out of selling books and giving conferences about how to control children using behavioral techniques.
So pardon me if I don't exactly expect you to be objective about this topic...:rolleyes:

MarkLakewood336 said:
If you actually read this article, you will find that it is an opinion and not research based.
The article I cited was from Dr. Laura Markham, who happens to do conferences about parenting and sell books, just like you. Except she is a clinical psychologist, unlike you.

Note to Cybele: yes, I can probably offer some insights and help. But I am finishing my master degree's final publication, deadline is in a few days. So I'll be back when I have a bit of time. :)
 
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MarkLakewood336

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parentastic said:
One last comment, Mark.

You display in your signature that you are the CEO of a company who is making their money out of selling books and giving conferences about how to control children using behavioral techniques.
So pardon me if I don't exactly expect you to be objective about this topic...:rolleyes:


The article I cited was from Dr. Laura Markham, who happens to do conferences about parenting and sell books, just like you. Except she is a clinical psychologist, unlike you.

Note to Cybele: yes, I can probably offer some insights and help. But I am finishing my master degree's final publication, deadline is in a few days. So I'll be back when I have a bit of time. :)
I am glad that you have an opinion on the subject. However, I would strongly encourage that you don't attempt to discourage those from implementing a proven, research based disciplinary technique on their child. As a therapist, I not only have seen this procedure work quite effectively on children but I also developed and taught an ongoing parenting program to voluntary and court ordered clients.

As I mentioned before, instead of coming down on me and my opinion regarding how this mother should cope with her child, maybe you should offer your own opinions. That is what this forum is all about, not attacking the ones who indeed are trying to help by offering an opinion.
 

cybele

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Umm... hi, I'm right here and I have a name and it's not 'this mother', please don't call me that, I am a person, not a relationship description.

Debate is very much appreciated, clearly this is something with very strong feelings on each side, and the science behind these things is important to know, it's not secret psychology business. As there are two sides though it will be suitable for some and not for others, I had stated multiple times that I am of the 'not for me' camp. I ask questions for ideas, not instructions. Like many things, with ideas you pick and choose, and debate helps make those decisions.

Parentastic said he will offer ideas later and why not now. I can't guarantee that they will be for me or not for me, but like with everyone else I will appreciate them as long as I am respected as the person equipped to make that call.
 

mom2many

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Cybele, he sounds like a hoot! Honestly, he doesn't sound like a naughty kid, just one who is trying to figure out what his role in society is going to be. Sounds like you might have a comedian in the making.

Now Lupan, bless his heart, was not the comedian kinda kid, he was just that kid who didn't think before he acted. You know the kid who rides down stairs, only days after learning, because it looked like fun or touching the electric fence, cause again it looked like fun...over and over again.

I'd like to say that as an adult he has outgrown it, and on some levels he has, but not on all. He's a 21 year old, who is still very much 12 at heart. I mean I got him a Nerf gun for his birthday, along with floor mats for his truck. You'd have thought he won the lottery, not to mention the joy he felt chasing his younger siblings around and shooting them.

We almost always allowed natural consequences to be his punishment, his natural inquisitiveness was a hard thing to battle, but we also talked a lot about stop, think and act. It's pretty self explanatory.

We drilled that into his head, and it worked some of the time.
 

MarkLakewood336

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cybele said:
Umm... hi, I'm right here and I have a name and it's not 'this mother', please don't call me that, I am a person, not a relationship description.

Debate is very much appreciated, clearly this is something with very strong feelings on each side, and the science behind these things is important to know, it's not secret psychology business. As there are two sides though it will be suitable for some and not for others, I had stated multiple times that I am of the 'not for me' camp. I ask questions for ideas, not instructions. Like many things, with ideas you pick and choose, and debate helps make those decisions.

Parentastic said he will offer ideas later and why not now. I can't guarantee that they will be for me or not for me, but like with everyone else I will appreciate them as long as I am respected as the person equipped to make that call.
I agree. Sorry for referring to you as the mother. I assumed that this was the case.
 

akmom

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I had the same issues with time-out. It becomes such a chore that the original offense is forgotten. What seems to be working for mine is a stop-and-discuss plus a task. But it's a different set of behaviors in my house anyway.

Parentastic said he will offer ideas later and why not now.
I always assumed Parentastic was a woman.
 

parentastic

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akmom said:
I had the same issues with time-out. It becomes such a chore that the original offense is forgotten.
Yes, exactly! The purpose of a parental intervention should be, IMO, to have the child focus on the issue and find an effective solution to the root cause. Timeouts is an intervention only aimed at changing a behavior through conditioning, which fails spectacularly when it comes to have the child actually reflect on the real issue.
When it "succeeds", it usually involved discussions and work that eventually works... <I><U>despite</U> </I>the counter-productive effect of the timeout.

akmom said:
What seems to be working for mine is a stop-and-discuss plus a task.
Yep. This is called reparation and empowerment, techniques and principles I have been advocating right from day 1 in these forums. :D

akmom said:
I always assumed Parentastic was a woman.
My first name is under each of my post in my signature :)
But hey, it's true that men are less likely to suggest positive or democratic solutions, if we are to follow the social stereotypes. So I can understand your assumption :p
 

parentastic

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Cybele, I am lacking some context if I am to try to help your situation through the systemic approach.
From what I have gathered so far, your little one seems well adjusted. I can see he is the last born in a pretty big family, so naturally he probably feels the less heard and the less autonomous one.
This can certainly influence him to seek ways to be more "visible" to the other older siblings and to the parents, and can perhaps explain in part his tendency to be the clown of the family and use humor to seek an audience.

As I am not aware of possible tensions in the family dynamics (if any), it's hard to see if there are other reasons that could explain a potential unmet need for more attention, and from whom. (Already, the above explanation can account for a good chunk of his behavior, IMO). But good results at school tends to indicate that the need is not deeply lacking, and the attachment is probably fairly secure, which is good news. So another aspect to consider here is that Sasha's temperament may play a role here - and if its the case, no amount of punishment or pressure will change his very tendency to be naturally extrovert, daring or exploring.

But a kid that tends to explore more, take more risks and try different (crazy) things is a good sign, even if it can be hell to manage: it's usually the sign of a well attached, secure child, who has a solid secure base from which he can explore the world. So the goal of an intervention should be to help him acquire self-restreint and self-discipline, so he stops to think before acting, rather than an attempt at removing this great characteristic of his personality.
And such an intervention must take into account that the brain uses the prefrontal cortext to learn to stop-and-think before acting, an area of the brain that usually develops and matures between 13 and 25 years old. So it's important to be realistic about your expectations.

As akmom was saying, the best results will probably stem from some repetitions of stopping his actions and discussions to help him reflect on past experiences. How he thought it was funny to stick his hand in a pipe; what happened when he did, what could have happened, etc. It takes trust and openness if you are to succcessfully discuss these experiences with him to help him make fully sense of it - something that will be eroded and put in geopardy when you use timeouts, hence my previous post.

Another, probably more effective but also long term strategy might be to have some deeper heart-to-heart conversations about how he feels in the family, how much he feels visible or heard (or not) compared to his sibling, etc. Offering him a space to express possible frustrations and other strong emotions related to this might in turn remove some pressure to be seen and allow him to slack off the clown routine.

Gotta go work, sorry, I am in a rush. I wish I could snap my fingers and get the damn paper done!
Best of luck :)
 
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cybele

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Damn these timezones, haha.


mom2many said:
Cybele, he sounds like a hoot! Honestly, he doesn't sound like a naughty kid, just one who is trying to figure out what his role in society is going to be. Sounds like you might have a comedian in the making.

Now Lupan, bless his heart, was not the comedian kinda kid, he was just that kid who didn't think before he acted. You know the kid who rides down stairs, only days after learning, because it looked like fun or touching the electric fence, cause again it looked like fun...over and over again.

I'd like to say that as an adult he has outgrown it, and on some levels he has, but not on all. He's a 21 year old, who is still very much 12 at heart. I mean I got him a Nerf gun for his birthday, along with floor mats for his truck. You'd have thought he won the lottery, not to mention the joy he felt chasing his younger siblings around and shooting them.

We almost always allowed natural consequences to be his punishment, his natural inquisitiveness was a hard thing to battle, but we also talked a lot about stop, think and act. It's pretty self explanatory.

We drilled that into his head, and it worked some of the time.
Hey, I'd be over the moon if someone got me a nerf gun, those things are fun.

That's kind of how I feel about it too, he's not 'naughty', he is just having fun, misguided fun that we need to re-guide, but as far as his overall behaviour goes, he's a really good kid.

MarkLakewood336 said:
I agree. Sorry for referring to you as the mother. I assumed that this was the case.
I think you have completely missed my point.

akmom said:
I had the same issues with time-out. It becomes such a chore that the original offense is forgotten. What seems to be working for mine is a stop-and-discuss plus a task. But it's a different set of behaviors in my house anyway.
That's exactly how I feel. I don't want to fight about how he is sitting/standing, whether he is moving or not, how long he is doing this for because then I start punishing him for how he is doing these things which is all irrelevant to the initial problem.
 

cybele

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Damn these timezones, haha.


mom2many said:
Cybele, he sounds like a hoot! Honestly, he doesn't sound like a naughty kid, just one who is trying to figure out what his role in society is going to be. Sounds like you might have a comedian in the making.

Now Lupan, bless his heart, was not the comedian kinda kid, he was just that kid who didn't think before he acted. You know the kid who rides down stairs, only days after learning, because it looked like fun or touching the electric fence, cause again it looked like fun...over and over again.

I'd like to say that as an adult he has outgrown it, and on some levels he has, but not on all. He's a 21 year old, who is still very much 12 at heart. I mean I got him a Nerf gun for his birthday, along with floor mats for his truck. You'd have thought he won the lottery, not to mention the joy he felt chasing his younger siblings around and shooting them.

We almost always allowed natural consequences to be his punishment, his natural inquisitiveness was a hard thing to battle, but we also talked a lot about stop, think and act. It's pretty self explanatory.

We drilled that into his head, and it worked some of the time.
Hey, I'd be over the moon if someone got me a nerf gun, those things are fun.

That's kind of how I feel about it too, he's not 'naughty', he is just having fun, misguided fun that we need to re-guide, but as far as his overall behaviour goes, he's a really good kid.

MarkLakewood336 said:
I agree. Sorry for referring to you as the mother. I assumed that this was the case.
I think you have completely missed my point.

akmom said:
I had the same issues with time-out. It becomes such a chore that the original offense is forgotten. What seems to be working for mine is a stop-and-discuss plus a task. But it's a different set of behaviors in my house anyway.
That's exactly how I feel. I don't want to fight about how he is sitting/standing, whether he is moving or not, how long he is doing this for because then I start punishing him for how he is doing these things which is all irrelevant to the initial problem.
 

MarkLakewood336

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cybele said:
Damn these timezones, haha.




Hey, I'd be over the moon if someone got me a nerf gun, those things are fun.

That's kind of how I feel about it too, he's not 'naughty', he is just having fun, misguided fun that we need to re-guide, but as far as his overall behaviour goes, he's a really good kid.



I think you have completely missed my point.



That's exactly how I feel. I don't want to fight about how he is sitting/standing, whether he is moving or not, how long he is doing this for because then I start punishing him for how he is doing these things which is all irrelevant to the initial problem.
What was your point? Regarding behavior in the timeout chair, this teaches kids how to follow rules. Parenting can be difficult. What can I say? There is no easy way out so don't expect it. No matter what discipline you enforce for any misbehavior, this can be very stressful and emotionally exhausting for the parent and the child. There is no easy way around this issue. However, it does get easier when the parent is consistent with the discipline.
 
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cybele

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parentastic said:
Cybele, I am lacking some context if I am to try to help your situation through the systemic approach.
From what I have gathered so far, your little one seems well adjusted. I can see he is the last born in a pretty big family, so naturally he probably feels the less heard and the less autonomous one.
This can certainly influence him to seek ways to be more "visible" to the other older siblings and to the parents, and can perhaps explain in part his tendency to be the clown of the family and use humor to seek an audience.
Thinking about it, if anything he probably gains the most attention in some ways, maybe due to the age gap? He pretty much has 5 adults/near adults in the house who care for him, but then that could even be part of the problem in some ways.

As I am not aware of possible tensions in the family dynamics (if any), it's hard to see if there are other reasons that could explain a potential unmet need for more attention, and from whom. (Already, the above explanation can account for a good chunk of his behavior, IMO). But good results at school tends to indicate that the need is not deeply lacking, and the attachment is probably fairly secure, which is good news. So another aspect to consider here is that Sasha's temperament may play a role here - and if its the case, no amount of punishment or pressure will change his very tendency to be naturally extrovert, daring or exploring.
Any issues that are really noteworthy occurred either before he was born, or when he was an infant, any lingering issues he is pretty heavily sheltered from.
That is pretty much him and how he has always been, he has always been extroverted, it's not just the attention seeking kind of stuff, it's just general exploring, he's always been the kid who is up a tree, over the fence, under a building, making 10 new friends anywhere we go. Which is why I'm a little stumped at all the getting stuck stuff, his norm is to go off exploring without a hitch, getting stuck in some of the strangest places is not normal for him, there's usually a little more thought into how to maximise exploring time going on.

But a kid that tends to explore more, take more risks and try different (crazy) things is a good sign, even if it can be hell to manage: it's usually the sign of a well attached, secure child, who has a solid secure base from which he can explore the world. So the goal of an intervention should be to help him acquire self-restreint and self-discipline, so he stops to think before acting, rather than an attempt at removing this great characteristic of his personality.
And such an intervention must take into account that the brain uses the prefrontal cortext to learn to stop-and-think before acting, an area of the brain that usually develops and matures between 13 and 25 years old. So it's important to be realistic about your expectations.
This is actually the kind of stuff I am looking for, I'm not sure what my expectations should be in regards to getting him to control himself as this is pretty new ground for me.

As akmom was saying, the best results will probably stem from some repetitions of stopping his actions and discussions to help him reflect on past experiences. How he thought it was funny to stick his hand in a pipe; what happened when he did, what could have happened, etc. It takes trust and openness if you are to succcessfully discuss these experiences with him to help him make fully sense of it - something that will be eroded and put in geopardy when you use timeouts, hence my previous post.
I will give that a try.

Another, probably more effective but also long term strategy might be to have some deeper heart-to-heart conversations about how he feels in the family, how much he feels visible or heard (or not) compared to his sibling, etc. Offering him a space to express possible frustrations and other strong emotions related to this might in turn remove some pressure to be seen and allow him to slack off the clown routine.
Thank you, I will certainly try that with him.



Good luck with your paper.
 

cybele

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MarkLakewood336 said:
What was your point? Regarding behavior in the timeout chair, this is teaching kids how to follow rules. Parenting can be difficult. What can I say?
I said you completely missed the point in regards to me asking to be called by my name rather than a description of my relationship. Yes I am his mother, but my name is not "this mother". That is quite rude when the person you are referring to is 'in' on the conversation.

I have stated multiple times, and frankly, am done stating it, that I do not believe that your particular method of time out will work for my family. Discipline is not one size fits all. Of course parenting can be difficult, you kind of notice that after 19 years of doing it, however there are many ways for kids to learn to follow rules, not just one.
 

MarkLakewood336

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cybele said:
I said you completely missed the point in regards to me asking to be called by my name rather than a description of my relationship. Yes I am his mother, but my name is not "this mother". That is quite rude when the person you are referring to is 'in' on the conversation.

I have stated multiple times, and frankly, am done stating it, that I do not believe that your particular method of time out will work for my family. Discipline is not one size fits all. Of course parenting can be difficult, you kind of notice that after 19 years of doing it, however there are many ways for kids to learn to follow rules, not just one.
And that is fine. I was merely giving you advice on this forum. Whether you choose to use it is completely up to you.
 

parentastic

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cybele said:
Thinking about it, if anything he probably gains the most attention in some ways, maybe due to the age gap? He pretty much has 5 adults/near adults in the house who care for him, but then that could even be part of the problem in some ways.
Yes, the dynamic here may be more complex than simply a question of too much or not enough attention. At 5 years old, it is quite certain that he wants to emulate others, wants to feel like he is doing the same kind of things that the big people do, want to feel equal to them.

cybele said:
the first incident was the drain pipe one, which happened the day after he got out of bed late at night for some water and a few of us were watching Angry Boys in the lounge and were cracking up laughing at one of the characters getting his arm stuck in the drain pipe. Next day, arm up a drain pipe.
The pipe incident shows a direct link between the family laughing and him trying to do it right there the day after.
Which is not necessarily a sign he wants people to laugh - but it does seem like a craving for attention. So since you are saying he does get a lot of attention, perhaps the next step is to look at what <I>kind of</I> attention he gets.


If we go back to the (revised) maslow's pyramid of needs (see attached image), and we rule out the physiological level (Enough sleep? food? etc) and the safety needs (he seems secure and safe), the next level is the need for belonging: a needs to feel accepted, to belong, to affiliate with others. The esteem needs, at the above level, is also significant: a need to gain approval and recognition. So there is a possible investigation to do on these areas.

cybele said:
Any issues that are really noteworthy occurred either before he was born, or when he was an infant, any lingering issues he is pretty heavily sheltered from.
I don't mean to pry on private stuff, just don't rule it out totally yet. Children can be impacted very young by the events around them, even if they were too young to consciously remember them. But from your description so far, I agree that it seems unlikely.

cybele said:
Which is why I'm a little stumped at all the getting stuck stuff, his norm is to go off exploring without a hitch, getting stuck in some of the strangest places is not normal for him, there's usually a little more thought into how to maximise exploring time going on.
Any growth spurt recently? Not getting stuck while you do all sort of acrobatic stuff requires fine motor skills, agility and balance. But sudden growth spurts can mean the brain needs to re-adapt to a new size, which means you may not fully evaluate the environment relative to self.
Has it only happened recently?

Another question only you can answer, but that can really help understanding what's going on here, is to look for <I>what changed?
</I>If something significant changed in his environment, chances are the changes in behavior may be related. For every behavior there is a need, and a root cause.

cybele said:
This is actually the kind of stuff I am looking for, I'm not sure what my expectations should be in regards to getting him to control himself as this is pretty new ground for me.
If it is in his nature to be advanturous and risk taking, the key here will be to help him acquire self-discipline and self-regulation. Which can never be taught from blindly following rules. Instead, it requires you to act as a thinking-aid to help him process experiences. You can use story telling, and active listening, to help him reflect <I>with you</I>, after-the-fact. By doing this regularly after each event, you insure he makes the proper connections in his brain and actually learns more from each experience. (google 'scaffolding' to read more about this concept in education).

However:
cybele said:
That is pretty much him and how he has always been, he has always been extroverted, it's not just the attention seeking kind of stuff, it's just general exploring, he's always been the kid who is up a tree, over the fence, under a building, making 10 new friends anywhere we go.
all of the above reflections are under the assumption that he is living some lack in one of his fundamental needs and that he is behaving accordingly. However, it's also possible that he really is acting "normally" for his temperament and personality. If that's the case, then perhaps there is nothing "wrong", per say, to find here. He might just be himself - and getting older, so getting in worst situations as he can do more things.

In that case, you can look at the other half of the issue: when he has no problem with a situation but the situation is problematic <I>for you</I>, then it may be that <I>your need</I> is not met. You also have needs: a need to feel that he is safe, that he can be trusted with school, that you are not called by the school authorities every day, etc.

It's very difficult to get children to change their ways (especially when it's part of their personality!) with behavioral control and threats, or when we give them reasons such as "you will hurt yourself!". Why? Because in their mind, they are not going to get hurt, they cannot see it, so they cannot relate to it. "You" messages are ineffective that way.
What works a LOT better is to use an "I" message. What's the concrete impact his behavior has <I>on you?</I> if you can voice that in an authentic way, you will trigger the attachment response and your child will <I>want</I> to be more careful <I>for you</I>. This of course only works if he has the ability to do it - like I said earlier, the brain area responsible for impulse control is very immature at that age, and your best bet is still to educate by going over each event using active listening to help him process it.

Sorry for the length, there are many different areas of investigation to look at and they are all inter-related, so it's hard to help in that case with an easy fix.

cybele said:
Good luck with your paper.
Thanks! It's a pain in the a... :D but it's advancing!View attachment Maslowhierarchyofneeds.jpg
 

cybele

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Feb 27, 2012
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I think you may have hit the nail on the head with idea that it's my needs, not necessarily his. I need to be sure that I can trust his behaviour at school, above all.

I will definitely try the "I" statements, looking back I think every conversation I have had with him on the issue has been "you" style ones.

There are a few things you have said that have a few little things swirling around in my head right now, but I just have to figure out how to word them, so I will have to come back to this when I figure it all out.
 

parentastic

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cybele said:
I think you may have hit the nail on the head with idea that it's my needs, not necessarily his. I need to be sure that I can trust his behaviour at school, above all.

I will definitely try the "I" statements, looking back I think every conversation I have had with him on the issue has been "you" style ones.

There are a few things you have said that have a few little things swirling around in my head right now, but I just have to figure out how to word them, so I will have to come back to this when I figure it all out.
Don't hesitate, let me know if I can be of help. I'll be happy to provide insights, if I can. :)