Rock -> ME <- Hard Place...

[txstepmom]

Ok, yes, spanking with a belt and leaving welts severe enough to warrant an ER trip is not right. However, that judge was outside the law to say "we don't spank kids." because it is not illegal - that was purely his opinion. None the less... There are still many people out there that can not control themselves and DO injure their children, unfortunately.

 

[parentastic]

Hello txstepmom, sorry for the delay, I hope things are going well for you.

Yes, 3/4 of her entire life... she likely does not remember me NOT being in her life.

Yep, exactly! It must be terribly confusing for that child not to call you mommy, because of the pressure her bio mom puts on her shoulders.

Only in the last couple years has it become a definite struggle due to BM's influence. K has become old enough to understand what is going on. She's fully aware that her mother doesn't like me. She's also sadly aware that her mother lies to her - in K's own words, "I know when she lies because her nose wrinkles". She's being forced to grow up much too soon.

Alright, so another way to see this, is that you have a unique advantageous position here to become something different for this child. The door is open for you to be what her mother is not. She has more than enough harsh discipline in her life, both from BM and to a lesser degree from your husband. What she needs is an ally, someone she can trust, someone who can listen and understand. Should you be ready to see how you can play this role, and through it, help her acquire the qualities you'd like to teach her, you would be well positioned to do so.

Beyond the BM issues, problems in my marriage have not helped the bond between K and I. Marriage is hard enough... gaining a child at the same time is even harder. BUT I want to do the best I can. A serious conversation with DH is way past due and hopefully we can find some strategies that work for us.

It is clear that the tension resulting from the family dynamics between DH and you is not helping the situation. It influences how she acts, it's a cycle.

I am certainly open to new solutions --- that is why I came here.

Very well. So I am going to give you some advices here that, perhaps, may seem contradictory so some of what you have read before or what you have done before. I am asking you to give it a serious shot and see what happens.

The idea is: how can we break the cycle of rebellion and escalation? Only from a completely different behavior comes a completely different result. If you want her to react completely differently to you, you need to stop doing what you used to do and start doing something completely different. To do this, I'd like to ask you - just for a few weeks, as a test, okay? - to change the way you <U><I>interpret</I></U> her behavior.

To illustrate, I am going to use the example you provided, with the PJ and the boots. So, here is the situation as you described:

<I>She was wearing pajamas and wanted to wear new boots she has. Since we were taking her back to her mother's after shopping, I told her to go ahead and put on the jeans that go back to BM's b/c they'd be cute with her boots, etc. She immediately started arguing with me.</I>

What I am getting here, is that as soon as she started "arguing with you", you interpreted that as a lack of respect for you, as something unacceptable that has to be stopped. You said: "Her argumentative response was disrespectful". So I am asking you, if you think it is possible the next time it happens, to suspend your judgment and instead, here is what I propose you do:
- Calmly sit down right so that you are at the same level she is, and lock into her eyes
- Smile gently and nod slightly
- Let her speak all the way until she is done, even if it takes 5 whole minutes to reach that point
- Every so often, nod a little, continue to smile, and make little encouraging sound like "hum..." and "ah..."
During the time she is talking, try to suspend your judgment and your anger. Please try to imagine she is not trying to be disrespectful (even if she might be, okay?) because if you do, you won't be able to truly LISTEN to the deeper reasons for which she seems to be resisting.

When you reach the point where she is done talking (FULLY done talking!) let a bit of silence linger. Continue to smile and nod, and THINK about what she said. Not <I>how</I> she said it. Not whether it was lacking respect or not. Just think about what could be her deeper <I>emotions</I> and <I>feelings</I>. Can you identify it? Can you remember being a little girl yourself and feeling these emotions, too?

Now, you are ready to talk. First, start by repeating what she said in your own words. You can say things "So... what you are telling me is..." or "What I get is..." etc.
If you repeated wrong, don't worry - she will let you know! If she does, let her speak, again, FULLY, until she is completely DONE.
Then try again to repeat what she said, until you see she acknowledges that it is indeed what she said.
Now tell her how you think she feels:
"It must be frustrating!" or "And so you are really annoyed". Or whatever you think her emotion might be. Don't judge the emotion. Simply name it. She needs to feel validated for her anger to dissipate and go away.

Finally, once you have done this, add:
"Thank you, I am glad I know how you feel now. I understand you better. Would you like to hear how I see things, now?"

Already, I can guarantee you that her attitude will have completely changed. Being fully listened and heard is not an experience she is probably ever truly experiencing at home with BM. You can play that role. You will find out, if you do, that she has a lot of say, and it's most probably not even related to you or trying to disrespect you. Having an opinion, for a child, is not a crime. And if she is voicing it in a forceful or non respectful manner, the way you calmly listen to her will DISPLAY and MODEL how she can listen to YOU the next time you speak. It's a POWERFUL method, and I should know, because I spend weeks teaching it to parents in my workshops.

All of this may take 10 or 15 minutes, yes. But what do you have to lose? It's time deeply well invested, as it will create a lot more than just an immediate collaboration to the problem. It will create and nurture a real bond, and trigger deeper collaboration on the long run. The more you do this, the less you ever HAVE any resistance. But it's hard also to do, because it also requires YOU to change your ways, and not only her. And it is that change, the change in you, that will be the most difficult part of this different approach. But if you do it seriously - and consistently for a while - I can promise 100% that it will work.

If you are like the parents I have in my workshops, you probably have a lot of questions and objections now. What if she still doesn't agree to put her jeans? What if she continues to be disrespectful after all this? I have precise answers on how to handle each "what if" for you, but I'd rather first have your questions and input before we go further, assuming you are still intrigued and interested to test it out.

Hoping I can be of help,

 

[txstepmom]

Parentastic, thank you for your detailed reply. I'm not sure how long ago you posted. I never received a notification so I'm just now reading it today (3/5/12). Your approach makes sense. And to an extent, what happened in that particular situation and happens in many others is in line with what you suggest. I do hear her out most of the time. I give her a chance to TALK to me about what she is trying to convey - not whine and argue and cry over not getting her way, but talk to me. I don't raise my voice, don't argue with her. I tell her what I want/need her to do and when she starts to "talk back" with whiny nonsense I simply stop her and tell her not to whine. I heard her out this particular day - she "never" gets to wear said pj pants and wanted to wear them. I explained to her that they're the only pj pants we have at our house at the moment and if she wears them to her BM's and forgets to bring them back, she won't have them to wear here... so asked her again to put on her jeans that go back to her mother's house.

***The clothing situation between our house and BM's is ridiculous but a whole other story. The woman has fits if K leaves anything she bought at our house, but doesn't mind keeping clothes we purchase, etc. It's stupid and I'd like for K to be able to get use of clothes we buy her but tend to run out of clothes b/c they all end up at BM's house if we're not careful.***

Anyway, that day we needed to get going if we were going to and when she continued to argue about changing clothes she was simply given a choice. Change clothes or don't go. Arguing continued so I stood up, took her by the hand, said "lets go to your room and figure it out", at which point she threw herself on the floor and started escalating from there. DH sent her to her room to cool off. Outing canceled due to lack of time at this point. When I went to her room to talk to her she just continued to argue why she shouldn't have to change clothes. More whining, sobbing, tears, back-talk. DH came to deal with the discipline from there.

We most certainly do not always resort to spanking... and at almost 11 years old, are trying to teach her how to make decisions, be respectful, etc. so she is always given a choice. In this instance it was to comply with what she's being told to do without arguing or not go shopping... neither of those choices suited her. If she couldn't wear her pj pants and go shopping, she was going to have a crying tantrum = pure belligerence.

I agree that there is a time and place to hear the child out but you can't always reason with them. Isn't there a point at which they should be taught to obey without always having something to say about it? Maybe that theory is simply a result of my own upbringing. Part of that was learning how to be heard without being SASSY/whining/arguing! Communication is very much about body language, tone of voice, etc... not just about the words. Even as an adult in the "real world" we are not always given choices or even the opportunity to be heard. Sometimes you just have to do what you are asked to do. Make sense?

Working with high schoolers the past 10+ years has taught me insurmountable patience in dealing with all types of personalities - many of which tend to think they are entitled to respect even though they show none!! Maybe that gives me a little bit harder edge when it comes to dealing with a 10 year old who will someday be one of these high schoolers... I hope that she DOESN'T act like many I encounter daily!

 

[parentastic]

Parentastic, thank you for your detailed reply. I'm not sure how long ago you posted. I never received a notification so I'm just now reading it today (3/5/12).

Yeah, sometimes the notification system is off, it happens! No worries!

I give her a chance to TALK to me about what she is trying to convey - not whine and argue and cry over not getting her way, but talk to me. I don't raise my voice, don't argue with her.

I see what you mean. You'd like her to speak clearly and talk to you without the childish behavior (the whining, the yelling, the attitude), and given that she would act this way, from what I read here, I have the feeling you are indeed willing to listen to her and see her point of view.

Yet, I am also getting that somehow, she is not doing this, and in return, you are returning to the "disciplining" stance... which feeds her feelings of unfairness and triggers more of her whiny attitude.
So I am offering you to try to change this - break the cycle, so to speak.
The thing is, speaking clearly and discussing arguments and explaining clearly what happens in your head and in your heart is a learned behavior. It takes time and practice. So in order to learn to do this, you have to be the one who starts by giving her the chance to be practice it.
I know you do give her this chance, because you are willing to listen to her. But she gets aggravated, emotionally speaking, and she can't find enough space to learn this new behavior with you, because she is all high in emotion when it would be the right time to try it.

In order to give her that space, you need to think of ways to give her a chance to save her face. You need to make a gesture, at that critical moment when she is in the middle of her emotion, that really says:

<I>"okay. I am going to really make an effort now. I am not your enemy. You have a real chance to get something out of this, if you calm down and talk to me clearly. Take a deep breath. I am not leaving anywhere. There is no time limit. You won't "lose" if you don't take a decision immediately. I am willing to wait until you are ready to speak to me calmly, and then we can try to find a way that works for both of us."</I>

she was simply given a choice. Change clothes or don't go. at almost 11 years old, are trying to teach her how to make decisions, be respectful, etc. so she is always given a choice. In this instance it was to comply with what she's being told to do without arguing or not go shopping... neither of those choices suited her.

Children have a powerful intuition. They can "feel" it when they are in a lose-lose situation.
You say that you gave her a choice, but in this situation, from her stand point, you have her no good choice, which means that she lose either way. So of course, she gets no incentive to really calm down and talk without wining, and instead she feels this overpowering anger and feeling of resentment.
Sometimes, as parents, there is no choice and we have to take action. I am not arguing this. But don't tell her that "it's your choice"! From her standpoint, this is BS, because she is well aware both choices are bad, and choosing between bad option A or bad option B feels just as bad as if there was no choice at all.

This is why I am stating above that real resolution takes time: not because such a small decision as to putting on jeans and removing PJs should take time (on the contrary!) but because what you are really doing is <I>teaching her to speak like an adult</I> and <I>teacher her to solve problems</I>. And these skills take time to learn. The benefit of course is that once it is acquired, it's going to create a powerful bond between the two of you and you won't have anymore "discipline" problem.

I love Barbara Coloroso's response to replace a "no": she takes the habit to tell her children "Convince me!" instead of "no". It's simple, but powerful. The message is no longer "I control your life", but rather "I am open to being shown otherwise... if you are willing to really think about it".

I tell her what I want/need her to do and when she starts to "talk back" with whiny nonsense...

This is what I mean by suspending judgment.
If you tell yourself, in your self-talk, "this is whiny nonsense!" then you will feel irritated and dis-respected.
But it's a choice.
You could also tell yourself: "Nobody has ever taught her how to think for herself about what she wants or why she wants it, and how to express it clearly. So she uses the only tactic she has learned to use, whining. It's damn irritating, but it's not her fault. I need to be patient, because I now have a unique opportunity to bond with her."
By telling yourself this instead, your irritation will go away and you will feel the desire to coach and assist instead.

I simply stop her and tell her not to whine.

Telling a child what not to do is rarely effective. What you could do is <I>show her</I> what to do instead.
For instance, you could sit down with her and tell her: "This is how you could tell me this:" (with a clear tone of voice, not whiney)
"I really love this PJ. I remember wearing it only yesterday and the week before, and now I feel so comfortable in it, I don't really want to remove it."

Then ask her if this is indeed how she feels. If she says yes, ask her to repeat what you just say, with the same clear tone of voice.
When she manages to do this, you can now reflect it back:
"Ahh! I understand now. I didn't realize you loved that PJ that much."
then validate it:
"I can see why you like it.. it's all soft! It must be really comfortable."
(now she will feel fully heard)
Finally, and only once you have both heard and validate her, can you state your side of it:
"I would love to let you wear it.. it's your PJ after all! But I am afraid if you wear your PJ to your mom, she will keep it there and when you come back the PJ will be gone from your dad's house... and that would be sad. It would also force dad to buy a new one, and that's not fair."
At this point, don't put her in front of 2 losing choices. Instead, ask HER to find a solution:
"So I really need the PJ to stay in your dad house. What could we do about it? What do you suggest?"
You have now stated your condition - your real need. She can find her own solution within that parameter. Sometimes, she may not find any new solutions (and sometimes she will astonish you with her creativity). If her suggestion is a win for you, and a win for her, then everybody win. If not, at least you have demonstrated your openness to her needs and willingness to hear her. And this will most likely stop the resentment and the whining.
Maybe the solution will be to go shopping together next week to get a new PJ of the same brand that she can bring to Mom? (with her own money of course)? whatever it is, let her find it. She is much more likely to agree to it if it comes from her.

Also, she shouldn't have to be punished for the ridiculous situation between BM and you.. she is stuck between the two families fighting and, frankly, if it is her own PJ, and she wants to bring it to her mom, from her stand point it makes perfect sense. Is it or is it not her PJ?
With some perspective taking, from her shoes - she is not unreasonable.

crying tantrum = pure belligerence.

But why the belligerence, do you think?
Can we go past the behavior, into her deeper motives?

Isn't there a point at which they should be taught to obey without always having something to say about it?

It's debatable, and yes, a lot of it depends on your own beliefs about parenting and child rearing, and how you were parented yourself.
But rather than answer this question with a simple yes or no, I'd rather answer with this:
The older the child, the more I think they should learn to make decisions for themselves, become more autonomous, have some wiggle ways into things that affect their own life, and get the opportunity to practice making decisions (even bad ones).
The younger the child, of course, the more tight the control has to be, and the less they have to say in the parent's decisions.

11 years old is not a baby. In just 2 years, you will hit the dreaded teen mood, with hormonal swings and the whole shabang. Better now than later she learns to be automous and starts feeling she matters in her own decisions, otherwise she will fully disconnect and "fire" both you, her dad and her mom from the job of parenting her, with all the consequences of a full blown rebellion (re-alignment toward peers, drug, crime, escaping from home on the streets etc).

Even as an adult in the "real world" we are not always given choices or even the opportunity to be heard. Sometimes you just have to do what you are asked to do. Make sense?

She has years to discover the real world. Today, what she needs is to train her brain, and develop her maturity. And she can only do this by taking her own decisions (as much as possible) and making her own mistakes. If she gets controlled for everything in her life, one day she hits 18 and she still knows nothing, still have experienced nothing.

For instance, take the PJ event.
Say you had accepted that she took her PJ to her mom.
What is the worst that would have happened?
Assuming you and her dad will NOT buy a new one, she may come back and find out, oups, there is no more PJ for me.
Let her discover this. Then she can go back to her mom again and this time make sure to pack her PJ to bring it back.

Like I said, a different approach...
If you keep telling me why your old approach was justified, nothing will change. Just saying you need to try something new...

 

[bssage]

TX

I can empathize with your plight. And it sounds like you handled things pretty will. Its hard sometimes for others to understand that much of the time parenting is time sensitive. There are times when we have got a bath running, mac and cheese boiling. Or getting the kids ourself and whoever else needs help getting ready for an event/ activity. You clearly stated that you were trying not to be late. We have all been there.

For Chloe my dd. We have picture stories. Stories that illustrate plans that we have. Going to the dentist for example. We show and talk about it several days prior to the event. Step by step, but very simple so she can understand and retain.

No I am not suggesting that. But as adults on my job we have a "job brief" that is required prior to any jobs that involve getting into harms way. Its the same principal as the "picture stories" I am kinda suggesting that. As a rule the take a few seconds to a couple of minutes. They cover who, what, why,when and where. Its a super simple thing to do and it really pays off big. Lot of times we will just draw a simple line with " I will be here, you will go there" ect. Its unbelievable helpful even as an adult.

I am suggesting planing your offense rather than relying on your defense.

Regardless. It sounds like you probably acted as most of us have. I wouldn't spend any time beating yourself up over it.

It works for us especially when we anticipate issues like leaving for a trip or going to an activity.

If you try it keep it formal, short, and simple. That gives an opportunity for them to question or even pose an alternative way to get the job done.

 

[Step23]

TxStepMom,
I'm have a stepgranddaughter who is 10 yrs old. And I also have no children of my own. I used to have very rigid ideas of children needed to behave and what was expected of them. My parents were rather strict with me, and I think I came along just fine, so that must be fine for other kids, right?

Well...it doesn't work that way sometimes. There was a time, with my granddaughter, when I could simply tell her what to do, when to do it, and she would do it, no questions asked. Then she got older and a little more independent. And even if it was freezing outside, she refused to wear a jacket, period. She didn't get "mouthy," or sass off, but she is one stubborn little girl! I could have forced the issue, my DH could have forced the issue, but it would only cause her to dig in her heels. So, I would tell her to bring a jacket, even if she didn't actually wear it. That was a compromise she could live with. (And she usually ended up wearing it, eventually)

Kids this age are beginning to want to make their own decisions and be more in control of their lives. They do understand they need parents, grandparents, and other adults in their lives, but they struggle with making their own choices - good and bad. This is a time when flexibility on the part of the adults is really mandatory! And, having a step-granddaughter at this age has changed all my ideas of what parenting should be!

My personal thought is discipline should be dispersed by the blood relative. I stand firm on that. I work in CPS, and see too quickly how a step or boyfriend or girlfriend can be brought up on child abuse charges for "disciplining" a child. Not good. My DH's kids/grandkids know I am displeased with something they've done by the tone of my voice and the look I give them - I need nothing else.

The incident with the pjs is interesting. I know what it is like to purchase items of clothing for a stepchild, only to have those clothes "wander" over to the other parent's home and never be seen again. I've also learned there are bigger things to get upset about in this world, and as long as the kid has clothes, who cares? In the greater realm of things, kid's clothes can be had for rather cheap. If you SD wanted to wear the pjs and there was a fear she would not come back with them, then you let her know that if she wears them and doesn't bring them back, she won't have them upon her return. If she brings them back - great! If she didn't? Oh, well, no pjs for you. When it comes to sleep, what's she gonna wear? You shrug your shoulders and say, "Gee, I don't know - you were supposed to bring your pjs back and didn't. I guess you'll have to sleep in one of dad's t-shirts or something." Her fault, she'll have to figure out the solution. Guess what? Next time, she will probably change clothes, or will remember to bring the pjs back.

With kids, I've found I have to be creative and always think one step ahead of them - which isn't all that hard. And never, ever get drawn into an argument with them. Ever. Whenever my Dh's minor son has wanted to start an argument, I simply stare at him, raise an eyebrow, and ask in a low, calm voice, "Are you even thinking of arguing with me? Really??" And I walk away. Whining is another thing I simply will not put up with. When my step-granddaughter begins whining for something I usually mimic her, which causes her to stop and ask me what I'm doing. I tell her I'm being just as annoying as she is to me. She's also found out that when she whines for something, she will not receive it.

You do have to be quick on your feet with kids, I have to admit. I will have one of the kids say something to me that will grab my attention, and I am thankful that I can usually think of a response pretty quick. It throws them off balance. I would hone that skill if I were you.

 

[txstepmom]

The incident with the pjs is interesting. I know what it is like to purchase items of clothing for a stepchild, only to have those clothes "wander" over to the other parent's home and never be seen again. I've also learned there are bigger things to get upset about in this world, and as long as the kid has clothes, who cares? In the greater realm of things, kid's clothes can be had for rather cheap. If you SD wanted to wear the pjs and there was a fear she would not come back with them, then you let her know that if she wears them and doesn't bring them back, she won't have them upon her return. If she brings them back - great! If she didn't? Oh, well, no pjs for you. When it comes to sleep, what's she gonna wear? You shrug your shoulders and say, "Gee, I don't know - you were supposed to bring your pjs back and didn't. I guess you'll have to sleep in one of dad's t-shirts or something." Her fault, she'll have to figure out the solution. Guess what? Next time, she will probably change clothes, or will remember to bring the pjs back.

Thanks for your insight... and I got a good chuckle out of the above tidbit. Believe you me, we have tried it all. And I do find her clothes rather inexpensively - primarily shop at a 2nd hand store - however, even $8 jeans add up after awhile! An unbelievable amount of clothes "wander off" so we've really just had to kinda stick to our guns about it and be careful to send her home in whatever she came with. 7 years of practice with that and we have a fairly good routine down... until she begs and pleads to take whichever item to wear at school, etc. We've given her some chances with that. One white jacket that she loved was brought back filthy dirty, nearly black on the sleeves - so that got used as a lesson in caring for the things you want to have a long time. If we ever sent ruined "BM's clothes" (according to her mother, they belong to her mother) back over there all hell would break loose. The woman really is a control freak. It's exhausting. She also expects us to buy school shoes and basketball gear and whatever else K needs - rather she'll just tell K to tell us we need to b/c she doesn't have any money. HA! Child support?? Thought that was supposed to be providing for things like that, not mother's going out habits. But I REALLY digress.

My personal thought is discipline should be dispersed by the blood relative. I stand firm on that. I work in CPS, and see too quickly how a step or boyfriend or girlfriend can be brought up on child abuse charges for "disciplining" a child.

Obviously I have different views on this. Being a blood relative doesn't make a person a good parent. I'm not just a girlfriend that may or may not stay in the child's life... I've been in her life since she was 3, married to her father for almost 7 years. And I would not, in any way, injure her. I am just as invested as DH is or as any adoptive parent would be. People argue that not having her with us full time is reason enough to lighten up but misbehavior is misbehavior regardless of whose house it happens in. Know how many high school kids I hear "you're not my mom so you can't tell me what to do" from?? These are the same kids who spend lots of time in detention. DH and I want better for K and that kind of character building starts at home. She doesn't have good role models on the "other side"... in fact just last night her mother yelled and screamed and cussed at DH when he dropped her off (on time and as expected). She was mad because we're supposed to have her starting tomorrow night at 6pm, through Spring break. Well, she planned K's half-brother's birthday party for this weekend and just assumed we'd be ok with not getting her until Sunday night. *None of this came up before yesterday.* DH said we have plans and would be there to pick her up tomorrow as the custody arrangement states. Well, she called him an a--hole and cussed him out with K standing right there. She's also called me a stupid b---- in front of K on several occasions. That's what we're "competing" with.

Anyyyywayyyy... K is no stranger to how things are done and what is expected in our home. It's unlikely she remembers anything "pre-stepmom", she was so young. Parentastic, bssage, thanks to you also... some good suggestions to think about.

 

[K_Stepmom2b]

Something that we recently started is a behavior jar.
Ultimately, the jar is her "allowance" She does good with several things: Eating all her dinner w/ no fuss, no disrespect when someone did something very nice, not interrupting when someone is talking, her schoolwork, her chores... we reward with a dollar.
If she does something such as yelling for no reason, being rude and hurtful, putting up a fight to eat dinner or any other meal, etc... then we take away the dollar. The goal for this is for her to realize that her actions have consquences - basically if she doesn't save up her dollars - then we can't go to disneyland!

As for everything you said in your OP, I completely agree with you on so many levels. I too, am in the stepmother-hood. The BM dislikes me on so many levels that's its unbelievable, whereas she brings me into things that I have nothing to do with. My SD calls me "step-mom" or by my name, which I don't have any problem with. She won't call me "step-mom" in front of her mother, but everywhere else she does. As far as I'm concerned, she can call me whatever she wants. (as long as its nice.. not anything negative) She acknowledges me as an authorative figure now, and only pushes to see what her limits can be. I'm just dreading the day when I get the "You're not my mommy", whereas I know it will just be a normal act out - I know with the amount of time I put into her - it will be hurtful. But its part of being a step-parent.

 

[jennypitt]

I'm not expert on this but these tips might be useful for parents/step mom's who want to inspire a better change in their disrespectful kids.

Teaching kids to be respectful is very important. It takes time, effort, and a lot of patience, but it’s also the kind of lesson that will help them live at peace with the people around them as well as with themselves.