school behavior~ long but please help...

[katencam]

Hi all! So I have a question about my 4 year old and school. He just turned 4 in June, so he is young (excuses, excuses, I know). So here is the story...

So my son turned 4 on May 31, he started school June 4. School is actually a day care at a private school loosely following the pre-K program he will start (hopefully) in the fall. The school is amazing, lots of love, lots of activity etc etc....

His background--
He has went to an in home daycare since age of 1 yr old, total of two. First one awesome, second one duration of 10 months only mediocre. He has always been head strong and independent...but his mom is head strong and independent so I get it. Never really any behaviors out of the ordinary for toddler/preschool boy. No learning delays or developmental delays. Has always been more comfy around adults than children, I always correlated with being an only child....

The Issue--
He started school approx 6 weeks ago. First 2 weeks okay behavior, horrible drop offs! Crying, break downs etc, as I understand this is normal for a new place of care. However now he has great drop offs and is excited for school and activities. Reports liking school and his teachers but when he gets to school and starts his day he is sooooo mean. Hitting and not listening, disrespectful and potty mouth. I have had meeting with teachers and separate meeting with principal. Now have another meeting with both setup to "plan his future at the school." Principal reported to me today that the other kids do not want to play with him because they are afraid of him. The reports I get are amazing as in he told another kid he would "shoot his head off" and "break their arms off". I do not speak like this, and I have notified any adult in contact with him that he may not rough house, threaten, wrestle, play fight etc etc even in play to avoid rule confusion. He does not watch violent TV. Another issue is he is always exhausted when I pick him up, yesterday he actually collapsed after coloring and I found him sleeping on the activity table at pick up!

At Home~~
He is great. He does not hit or throw too many fits. He is respectful and uses perfect manners. He does get defiant or rowdy at times, but mainly when tired. He is very loving and affectionate and happy and social.

Actions so far~~
Everything. I have used time out, rewards, bribes, taking toys away, deep talks, ignoring problem behaviors....nothing helps

I have been very strict with bed time 8 pm for a wake up at 6 am. Also have a good routine and diet.

I have a counselor appt made and a PCP appt both next week, but I do not know what to do....from a medical perspective I do not feel as if he has ADHD or mental issues, I feel if this were the case he would display signs at all times not just 8a-3p....also he has appropriate emotional responses to issues, such as guilt, saddness, pride, happiness, excitement, etc.
From a mothers perspective this is taking over our lives and my sanity...and I fear he will be expelled soon, and understand why


The only answer I have at this point is kind of exaggerated. But he has an ENT (Ear, nose and throat) doctor following him because of enlarged tonsils. Options are to watch and let him grow into them or removal. We were waiting for more observation, however the size of his tonsils affect him in a manner such as adult sleep apnea which disrupts sleep cycles. The ENT has reported direct links from disrupted sleep cycles and behavior issues and even misdiagnosed ADHD cases....

 

[parentastic]

An intriguing case, OP.

I'd need more info to help. Can you tell me a bit about the family dynamics?
What's going at home? What kind of relationship between you and your partner? Any fights? Any health issues? Any large stress going on? Moving? Changes that can affect his routine?

Yes, sleep apnea will disrupt sleep cycle and yes it can affect behavior, especially as it adds to stress and special situations.

Have you ever had a play date at home? Has he ever had the chance to socialize on his own turf, while you are not too far in "ear distance" so you can hear first hand what is going on? Did he display any of these attitudes while socializing with other kids outside of school (like when he was at daycare before)? Do you know what happened right before he would use things like 'I'll break your arm' or other aggressive response like this? We need context here.

What kind of discipline do you use at home? What kind of discipline do they use at school?

 

[katencam]

Thanks for replying! It is just Cam and I at home, no sig other. However his father and I are good friends and get along very well and speak often. As far as discipline at home, he does get timeouts and we use a reward system/take away system. Such as if the playroom isnt clean then no bike rides today. I try very hard not to yell and spank, while I do not spank I have raised my voice. He plays with our neighbors and his cousins and has no issues with hitting and/or threatening. There are fights/arguments about toys but nothing that escalates to the point of intervention by adult. At school they discipline with time outs and reward good behavior.

There is not a lot of stress at home, no big changes, no financial issues, no relationship issues. Cam and I are close and talk freely.
I know he has had shifts in his routine before, I did have a live in BF from the time that Cam was 2 yrs to 3 yrs, they got along okay but he has been gone for well over a year now.

Another thing about the sleep issue is that he is also going without his naps now, and this kid is a sleeper. When we originally saw his ENT they asked if was tired in the day. The answer then was no because at home and at sitters he would take either 2 1-2 hour naps or 1 3-4 hour nap a day!! Which at school has decreased to 1 1-hour rest period. So now the answer is yes he is exhausted in the day time.

 

[IADad]

unlike parentastic I need no more information to form an opinion ;-)

seriously, I don't have an answer,but a couple of thoughts. Tired was the first thought that came to mind. The morning actions sound like a tired boy...Is the bedtime routine working? Why does he not nap at the school "rest period?

Second, he learned the action somewhere, the potty mouth the hitting...so time to circle around with the adults and older child influences.

Third, it seems like you've tried a lot in 6 weeks. Maybe too many things and not quite enough effort at any one? In your meeting regarding next steps, I think I'd work with the administration to set forth a plan that you are all going to respond with "X" whatever it mights be, so you have some consistency.

And I think I'd go ahead with that counselor, can't see a reason not to at this point.

 

[bssage]

Most places we attended will allow you to audit the class. If you can take some time from work and watch what is going on it may help from a couple of angles.

First you may see some of the behavior first hand. Not likely: but maybe.

Second having mom attend may act as a deterrent if he thinks that is an option he may rethink the behavior. Also a long shot.

And the last angle is that it brings his two world closer together. So that school and home are not two separate places that he can behave differently in.

Even at 11 I still make an effort to bring them together for my boy. I drop them an email that say he swam this weekend or just a little causal info. And they in turn do the same. We can say I heard this or the teachers can say they heard that. Helps him understand that we are all on the same team and not so far apart(I hope). I do think the sleep is a component. But have a hard time believing it is solely responsible for such a Jeckle and Hyde transformation.

 

[katencam]

Hi! Thanks for the reply.

Yes his bed time routine is success for getting him into bed and asleep. However he does not sleep well or deep because of his OSA and tonsil/throat issue.

He does rest and sleep at times at the school rest time, however with the stimulation and other kids I would think it would not be compared to the 3-4 hour naps he wants to take.

Learning the actions...I have the same opinion. I have spoken to the adults and children around him about rough play and language and have even cut out a few play mates that were just too rough...the only issue I face with this is he goes to his dads every other weekend and though he says he follows the same expectations...there is no way of me knowing

I also agree with you that I have tried a lot in 6 weeks!! And this just dawned on me today when I was talking to another parent about the issues! Obviously I managed to get myself into a tizzy as well, and looking back probably made it a little harder on him with inconsistency

He saw his PCP today, apparently he has a strep infection (may explain some things), counselor tomorrow and ENT next week....

Thanks again for reading/responding....I appreciate feedback and opinion

 

[katencam]

Most places we attended will allow you to audit the class. If you can take some time from work and watch what is going on it may help from a couple of angles.

:yes: I am going to go Wednesday

 

[tadamsmar]

Have you asked him if he has any friends at school?

I notice that you don't mention any playmates in the home. Does he ever have playmates in the home?

You said he was comfy around children. You can work from that, reinforce that. And this works better if you are able to observe it immediately.

Do you have any pets?

Playmates at home would give you a chance to observe his interactions with others his age. It would give you an opportunity to encourage good interactions directly and immediately. Specifically praise any good interactions with children. Not just "good boy", but praise him for what he did, and ask him why he did it to get him talking about why he has good interactions with children.

In general, commend him for any good interactions with children.

 

[katencam]

Hey! He has just this week started mentioning kids by name at home about school, which I thought was good. Previously I would ask questions like tell me about your friends, or which friends did you play with...he didnt really respond with details, just "the kids". But this week he has said "My friend Sophie" and "Brady, my friend from school..." I kind of thought that was a little breakthrough ?

We do not have any pets, we did have a big dog that he loved very much however the big dog ate my wall (literally...a hole straight through) So we needed to place him in a home where he could exude more energy! I have thought about trying to get him a (small) pet in order for him to have some responsibility (as much as a 4 year old can have) but something just his that he enjoys...

As far as play mates, there are kids he plays with in the neighborhood, though most are older. I have been taking him as much as possible to where our family lives because he has 3 cousins his age there to play with, however they are 2 hours away so it is weekends only, and every other at that. It is very different how he interacts with them. He is very playful and carefree. No hitting or insulting...however in this arena they are outside surrounded by activity options and endless room and space so while I thought it was good for him to play with kids, I also believe it is a different more casual atmosphere, but hopefully he can obtain some problem solving skills still being in contact with them...

 

[tadamsmar]

Maybe he is being influenced in a bad direction by some of the older kids he plays with. Try to monitor those interactions and identify any bad apples. You can try to limit access or try to counter the influence by discussion.

 

[akmom]

I agree that it might be very helpful to observe him in the classroom. Of course, make sure to be positive and make him feel like you are sharing in his day, not trying to catch him in an act of badness!

Hearing everything second-hand makes it hard to put the situation in context and identify the triggers that only you would notice, knowing what his routine and personality normally are.

 

[katencam]

I understand that it is hard to hear a story and fully understand all of the factors, I guess I was just hoping to hear some ideas I have not thought of or really just get out some frustrations with just talking the situation through!

Thanks for reading/helping I am hoping that by viewing his actions/routines there that I can just understand his acting out.

 

[parentastic]

Tired was the first thought that came to mind.

I agree with IAdad that the sleep issues can certainly affect your son's behavior.

I'd be curious to know what goes on when he sees his father. Does he sees him on a regular basis? Do you know what happens when he is there?

Kids who use threatening / hitting, being disrespectful at school, all of these are signs of underlying needs not met:
- The threatening and controlling behavior is a sign of a need for control, which would indicate potentially that he does not live enough control over his own life, so he may compensate with others;
- It is often a behavior seen elsewhere, for instance if he sees someone use threats against him (and punishments often are like that), then he may get the idea that when you are the bigger child, you can impose your will on others just like parents impose their will on him. (hence my question about what's going on with his father).

At this point I don't yet see other possibilities, with what you have sent us so far. So I am guessing there are pieces of the puzzle that are still missing. What has changed in his life since he started this behavior at school?

 

[katencam]

Just an update I got a note, more like a letter from school today describing what a joy it was to have Camden in class today!! Included in the letter was information that he was polite, well mannered, helpful to the teacher and played very nicely with every kid there )))

Now I know it was just one day but hey! baby steps...right?? We are partying in this house tonight...race cars and chocolate milk all around

 

[tadamsmar]

Give him lots of positive attention, encouragement, and specifc praise for being polite, well-mannered, and helpful. Celebrate his accompishment.

Don't say anything like "but it was only one day" to him. Don't caboose anything, any "but" statements, on the end of praise that undercuts the praise or that he might view as criticism.

Express your enthusiam, give him a high five or a pat on the shoulder.

Give positive attention to every small step in the right direction.

 

[teenage_parent]

Just an update I got a note, more like a letter from school today describing what a joy it was to have Camden in class today!! Included in the letter was information that he was polite, well mannered, helpful to the teacher and played very nicely with every kid there )))

Now I know it was just one day but hey! baby steps...right?? We are partying in this house tonight...race cars and chocolate milk all around

so... what do you think brought about the change? did you do anything different?