Something we are trying...

[bssage]

Sorry for being unclear. I do not think the OP will cause major harm.

I am unhappy when someone insinuates that I am less of a parent because I either do not subscribe to there particular program or teaching. I think like most parents I try to be diligent and research when I can, what I can. Doing the things I feel are best for my kids and family. When I act deliberately. I do so with their best interest in mind.

It is my opinion that even some misguided attempts in doing what is best will come to light as the well intentioned acts they were. As our children mature and understand that there parents wanted the best for their family. And that even parents can make mistakes.

I think a lot of people have had less than ideal upbringing. Overcoming the occasional spanking or misplaced reward without major life altering consequences. My mothers fly swatter cleaning the house program is a good example of this. My dad's several swats to the butt and attempts to bribe me into academic success. While they may not have been ideal approaches to the roadblocks of life. I have no doubt they were sincere and self sacrificing on my behalf.

Frankly it scares me to think that because I have not read every study, gone through every parenting book written. That I will ruin my kids life's. If you don't already know My daughter is Autistic. I am not telling you this to get sympathy but so you can understand the amount of studies, books, blogs, sites, seminars, conventions, I have read and participated in (currently working on the Yale seminar. Yawn). It is overwhelming to me that I would need to do that for everything. And really, <U>I am not sure if I am even capable of doing that.</U> I am exhausted. I am disillusioned by the whole process. Books that contradict books. Studies that contradict studies. Every body has a fix, for a price.

How you got the "Just to be clear, are you saying nothing a parent can do can be detrimental to a child development?" out of any of my posts. I dont know how to answer. I guess the answer would be Yes (hell yes) a parent can be detrimental to a child's development. Will a well intentioned parent who always tries to do whats best. Who puts in the time and the work to really be a good parent be taken to task for not being perfect? I suppose. But I am not happy with that answer.

Maybe I am just taking out my aggravation on this thread.

 

[PianoLover]

Sorry for being unclear. I do not think the OP will cause major harm.

I am unhappy when someone insinuates that I am less of a parent because I either do not subscribe to there particular program or teaching. I think like most parents I try to be diligent and research when I can, what I can. Doing the things I feel are best for my kids and family. When I act deliberately. I do so with their best interest in mind.

It is my opinion that even some misguided attempts in doing what is best will come to light as the well intentioned acts they were. As our children mature and understand that there parents wanted the best for their family. And that even parents can make mistakes.

I think a lot of people have had less than ideal upbringing. Overcoming the occasional spanking or misplaced reward without major life altering consequences. My mothers fly swatter cleaning the house program is a good example of this. My dad's several swats to the butt and attempts to bribe me into academic success. While they may not have been ideal approaches to the roadblocks of life. I have no doubt they were sincere and self sacrificing on my behalf.

Frankly it scares me to think that because I have not read every study, gone through every parenting book written. That I will ruin my kids life's. If you don't already know My daughter is Autistic. I am not telling you this to get sympathy but so you can understand the amount of studies, books, blogs, sites, seminars, conventions, I have read and participated in (currently working on the Yale seminar. Yawn). It is overwhelming to me that I would need to do that for everything. And really, <U>I am not sure if I am even capable of doing that.</U> I am exhausted. I am disillusioned by the whole process. Books that contradict books. Studies that contradict studies. Every body has a fix, for a price.

How you got the "Just to be clear, are you saying nothing a parent can do can be detrimental to a child development?" out of any of my posts. I dont know how to answer. I guess the answer would be Yes (hell yes) a parent can be detrimental to a child's development. Will a well intentioned parent who always tries to do whats best. Who puts in the time and the work to really be a good parent be taken to task for not being perfect? I suppose. But I am not happy with that answer.

Maybe I am just taking out my aggravation on this thread.

Thank you for your heroically brave post

First of all I'd just like to assure you that by even taking the time to read a single book to influence ypur methodsyou are more than likely to be doing better than 99% of parents, by being on a forum like this? 99.99%

Your children will know this, many say 'your parents did the best they could' to children of parents who were verbally abused or worse but could have read a single book or took a class. You have demonstrated that you really want to do the best you can and that is wonderful!

Just remember that no matter how well you do your children will do even better with their kids, as you did by rejecting physical punishment, that is the real gift and legacy you are leaving the future!

My mum was severely physically abused, she did not do the same but was very controlling and verbally abusive as a result, which inspired me to learn all about paychology and parenting, so we are onwards and upwards !

Try not see these conversations as a categorisation of methods relative to your own but an opportunity to learn from one another. You should be proud of yourself for being able to evn have them! Many are far too dogmatic to even attempt them!

 

[parentastic]

Hey bssage, thanks for your last post.
I understand you better and I appreciate that!

I am unhappy when someone insinuates that I am less of a parent because I either do not subscribe to there particular program or teaching.

I think any parent would be unhappy at this, it makes sense.
This is not what was said though.
I said that the button economy promoted by the op is detrimental.
There is no insinuation of being a lesser parent, nor any peculiar request for a specific subscription to a particular teaching or program.

I think like most parents I try to be diligent and research when I can, what I can. Doing the things I feel are best for my kids and family. When I act deliberately. I do so with their best interest in mind.

Yes, I totally agree with you.
I think most, if not virtually all parents, act because they think they are doing what is right.

It is my opinion that even some misguided attempts in doing what is best will come to light as the well intentioned acts they were. As our children mature and understand that there parents wanted the best for their family. And that even parents can make mistakes.

I am right there with you on that.

Frankly it scares me to think that because I have not read every study, gone through every parenting book written. That I will ruin my kids life's.

I think any parents would feel exactly like this too. And again - I'd like to point out, respectfully, that in no way, shape or form I am suggesting that a parent has to read every study and go through every parenting book written. Worst, 99% of the parenting book published today are quite detrimental and are based either on no science what so ever, or on old school psychology adapted from behavior control used on animal training (operand conditioning, BF skinner, behaviorism, rewards &amp; punishment system, etc).
How could a parent know about this? Or read every book? How could they even know which books is solid or not, when they go as far as completely countering each other and sometimes are based on diametrically opposed philosophies?

I sure do not expect any parent to do this. This is why people like me offer parenting workshops. And one of the things we do is go over some of the most popular parenting litterature so they know which ones follow which philosophy and can get a quick summary of which philosophy they chose to follow.

All I am saying in this thread is: the OP is offering a "recipe" strategy, involving "buttons", and is posting about it on a parenting forum.
As a professional in family life education, I am outlining that there are some solid detrimental effect to the proposed child rearing choices expressed. I back my claim with a reference so that the OP can, should he want, research it. End of story.
Me? If I was the OP, I would WANT to know about these detrimental effects, if someone was pointing them out., before I spend 15 years of the lives of my children using this.
Just saying.

If you don't already know My daughter is Autistic. I am not telling you this to get sympathy but so you can understand the amount of studies, books, blogs, sites, seminars, conventions, I have read and participated in (currently working on the Yale seminar. Yawn). It is overwhelming to me that I would need to do that for everything. And really, <U>I am not sure if I am even capable of doing that.</U> I am exhausted. I am disillusioned by the whole process. Books that contradict books. Studies that contradict studies. Every body has a fix, for a price.

Yeah, I hear you, bssage. And I feel a tremendous amount of sympathy for you. One of my friend's best friend has an autistic child. I can see what she is going through. It must be infuriating to see all these contradicting information, to have so little time and what's the point anyway, if you can't pick what works or doesn't work?

Thank you for sharing how you feel about this.
If I can do anything, I'd be happy to help - but I know my knowledge with parenting education does not include autism.

How you got the "Just to be clear, are you saying nothing a parent can do can be detrimental to a child development?" out of any of my posts. I dont know how to answer.

[/QUOTE]

Sorry, but I was responding to how you seem to see my own responses as if I am either stating how to raise your kids, or saying if you don't do it my way you are "screwing them up". Since the only thing I said was that what the OP was proposing is detrimental, I was trying to understand how you could infer the former from the later.

I guess the answer would be Yes (hell yes) a parent can be detrimental to a child's development. Will a well intentioned parent who always tries to do whats best. Who puts in the time and the work to really be a good parent be taken to task for not being perfect? I suppose. But I am not happy with that answer.

Then what should I do, when I read something I know is detrimental?
Should I just not say it? What do you propose?

Maybe I am just taking out my aggravation on this thread.

Thank you for letting me know.
Peace,

 

[MrsMummy]

I use the button system and I find the anger towards it rather unfounded.
I do it for very different reasons than have been given by the orginal poster.


My childhood background is very traumatic, I TRUELY did live the disfuctional life, I am an adult child of addicts not 1 or 2 but 3; my father, mother and step-mother. As you eluded about the parenting books, I have ready my fair share so as to not be like them-my parents. One of the few advantages of coming from an abusive is how I can see, bullies very easily, I can see disfuntion in situations far before most other "normal" people can.

I believe that in raising children there are two main things; teaching values and teaching real life.

The economy is designed to teach real life and choices, that there is a real unseen system in the world that will not favour them generally, banks and government or people who break laws ie, government and police and the courts.
The buttons are to teach a child how to work in that "real world" framework (not talking about the rights or wrongs of the frame work) to still achieve what they want.
As a child who comes from disfuction there were many things that were simply not taught to me, I have watched many others with limited sucess "try" to teach their children too. I dont want to make little "me's", I want to raise responsible, resilient, capable children. But more than that I want THEM to know they are. I have seen the sytem evole quite quickly, and watched my children become more kind and loving to each other. I thought it was the buttons but its not really it's that fact they have a tangable way of knowing in themself that they measure themselves against theirselves.
Yes the value is "fake" but the outcomes are real. And its the real parenting that I am wanting. I have watched them encourge each other to finish something or even helped each other to finish, I have watch my children discourage bad choices through the system too. and I have watched them correct my choices too. The underpinning process through this we have MORE oppertunity to teach our values, making the buttonsabout life lessons too.
One of my children was in the process of Stealing a button and was caught in the act, I was so amazed about what unfolded because we could talk about this real life situation in a way that would not impact on him if he had actually tried to steal something of real value we talked about guilt and shame, desires right one and wrong ones. the other day my child was in the pool and said he couldnt find his googles I told him where I had put them he asked me extremely politely to get them as I went to get them he said I thing that would be worth a button, I'll give you one when I get out. To it i reply, you can pay for knidness and you can out pay love, buttons are like money and money cant but those things, what do you think? he said that he told that it made love Cheap iof it was paid for.
I could go on and on about this and the situations that I have been about to go through with my children but I wont.

I want to get back to how some people are talking: why are you so angry about this? is this how you are when your children disagree with your ideas and values? are you children allowed to disagree with you?

I've learnt that there is a fine line between debate and rageing. debate is the sharing and expression of differing of ideas that is still thought provoking and yet refreshingly unlifting, raging is putting another person down through 'superiour' ideas trying to force others over to your view. debating isn't about change anothers view its about moderating your own views and tempering the extremes. Like life balancing what <I>your</I> values are in relation to <I>your</I> living exprience and comparing it to anothers living exprience first and then their values.
Hence why I use buttons to add another layer to parenting teaching life exprience in a controled envoriment allowing my children to explore values without concequences well the real life ones anyway. like stealing we have worked through that and my child expreinced guilt shame, fear and yet we loved him through it and he has now established his OWN value. Stealing is not worth the pain.

Many you have a day full of oppertunity to teach your child about your values and about their world around them.

Regards
MrsMummy

 

[singledad]

I just want to throw a spanner in the works re. the so-called "child-rearing techniques", psychology, and all the research that is done around it.

And just before anyone misunderstands - I do appreciate that a lot of good research is being done, and I am always open to new techniques and ways to be a better parent. If I wasn't, I would be an active member on a parenting forum.

Here's the deal, though - psychology is not an exact science. Human beings are individuals, and even though some things my increase or decrease the chances of other things occurring, when you have to do with the human brain, you can never say "If you do A, B will happen". There may be a high chance of B happening, but it is never a given fact. That is point number one.

Point number two, is that every decade brings new research and new books that often completely discredit the books from the previous decade. Who is right? I think it would be understandable to conclude that we are always continuing to learn more, and that newer knowledge would be more "correct" that knowledge from 30 years ago, but is it really? What about cases where previous research had been proven to be dead wrong? (And there are many such cases in the history of psychiatry) Whose to say that the truth isn't somewhere in between?

And what will happen in the next 20 years? Can anyone tell me with certainty that 20 years from now, there won't be scientific studies that show that attachment theory completely missed some very important point? In that light, should we really, slavishly follow any theory, or should we rely more on our instincts (a technique that have seen the human race progress over thousands of years), while taking into consideration concepts from all the different theories about parenting that are out there?

Can't we use aspects of attachment parenting, coupled with some authority, perhaps even with a token system thrown in here and their, all diluted with a good dose of simple, unconditional love?

I know I make an effort to read widely, and asses any information I can find on whether or not it can enhance what I'm currently doing. If someone asked me what parenting style I follow, I wouldn't have a simple answer...

 

[apochimongitus]

I'm with singledad here... can't we all just get along?

The token system that we use is relevant to our parenting because it is the same token system that we use in the real world (with some altruistic modifications). The kind of parenting that goes on in our house is not 1 dimensional. There are aspects of the different styles of parenting in what we do. I happened to be excited about our button economy so I wanted to post and recommend it to other like minded people.

Parentastic mentioned in relation to reading all the parenting material out there...

I sure do not expect any parent to do this. This is why people like me offer parenting workshops. And one of the things we do is go over some of the most popular parenting litterature so they know which ones follow which philosophy and can get a quick summary of which philosophy they chose to follow.

I know that parenting advice is your profession but this statement seems a little arrogant. Humanity has been struggling with this for the best part of recordable history yet we still manage to rear decent kids (most of the time). As I understand it, this forum is here for the civil exchange of ideas and, despite our professions, should respect each other and be courteous. I don't think I was being prescriptive in anything that I have said so far. I merely offered what was working for me as a parent.

Cheers,

A.

 

[IADad]

I got my buttons when I bought the TV

okay, that made me laugh....

 

[IADad]

one thing to add to the mix and I think it dovetails with what the people contending that reward systems don't work very well are saying. I've seen some applications in classrooms and I think there's some thought (sorry no sources to post) that they are only effective used for limited times. So, wouldn't using them for a limited time, to make a point and make the child think about some of these issues of economy be useful, as long as it doesn't become the sole currency of the house? I mean if you're teaching literature you don't solely teach Kafka, all day, every day....

 

[alter ego]

Personally we use a 'family planner' where EVERYONE has chores and responsibilities.
We DO use stars when jobs are completed, and whoever has the most stars gets to choose our sunday activity.
The only consequence of NOT completing chores is that mum/dad has to do xyz, and the child misses out on the park/etc since we were too busy to take them.
Also my older 4 are learning that the consequence of not putting their things away is one of the toddlers either breaking or hiding their things. Miss 20 months took Master 9s shoes into the chook yard last week, as he had left them in the lounge room (rather than on the shoe rack) and he was late to a friends house since he couldnt find them.
Ive found that kids love helping, and have encouraged that (fighting impatience every step of the way when a simple job take 3 times as long with 'help') in our family.
If we all do our jobs, everyone benefits.