SPANKING revisited...

bssage · Feb 4, 2012

parentastic said:
bssage, have you read Gershoff's 2008 report on physical punishment?
Gershoff, E. T. (2008). Report on Physical Punishment in the United States: What Research Tells Us About Its Effects on Children. Columbus, OH: Center for Effective Discipline.

It is a report, produced by the Phoenix Children Hospital and endorsed by dozens of professionals and doctors and prepared for parents.
It is regrouping the meta analysis of over 100+ studies on the topic and putting together all the conclusions.
Would you take the time to read it? It's an easy read, only a few pages.

Ok read the report.

"

What Research Tells Us About Its
Effects on Children was conceived by the advisory board of End Physical Punishment of Children"

No agenda there.

Where does it state the methodology of the studies they are siting. All we get is this.

This definition includes light physical force, such as a slap on a child's hand, as well as
heavier physical force, including hitting children with hard objects such as a wooden spoon or paddle.
However, physical punishment does not refer only to hitting children as a form of discipline; it also
includes other practices that involve purposefully causing
children to experience physical discomfort in order to punish
them. Physical punishment thus also includes washing a
child's mouth with soap, making a child kneel on sharp or
painful objects (e.g., rice, a floor grate), placing hot sauce on a
child's tongue, forcing a child to stand or sit in painful
positions for long periods of time, and compelling a child to
engage in excessive exercise or physical exertion.

Which is what I have been saying about her studies stands. No distinction between a deliberate reasoned spank and someone who beats their child on a regular basis.

Your second link does not work.

I am sticking to my guns. Show me a report that says occasional spank, say once every couple of years, once a year, once every several months has long term harmful effects. I have not seen it. Not only that but it is my understanding that Gershoff does not include this group in the spanked group in her studies.

Jeremey. My wife yells at the kids and I dont. I was spanked and she wasnt. That just tells us about you and your wife.

I wont be able to make any replies for awhile. Not giving up just away from my computer.

MomoJA · Feb 4, 2012

aking a child kneel on sharp or
painful objects (e.g., rice, a floor grate), placing hot sauce on a
child's tongue, forcing a child to stand or sit in painful
positions for long periods of time, and compelling a child to
engage in excessive exercise or physical exertion. .[/QUOTE]

The interesting thing about this is that I know people who were raised in cultures where these sorts of discipline are the norm, and they have grown up to be very successful, interesting, cosmopolitan people. They laugh when they talk about it almost with fondness of the memories. It is sort of like when you hear people talk about that horribly mean teacher they had in grammar school who they feared and respected at the time and who they now admire and attribute much of what they learned to him/her.

I'm not condoning these things, only pointing out that they do not necessarily negatively impact a person. It's sort of like the stories of what went on in British public schools (private boarding schools to us in the US.) We would think of it as criminal-level bullying, but it was accepted and even expected behavior. And I'm not just getting these stories from Raold Dahl. I have friends who went to these schools. I'm always shocked to hear their stories, but they laugh about it.

alter ego · Feb 4, 2012

TabascoNatalie said:
My own opinion is strong and straightforward against. By hitting your child, you show an example, that physical violence is morally acceptable when you feel like it or want to prove your authority. Do we want to raise the next generation thinking like this? Then we wonder why there's so much bullying.

I couldn't agree more.
in our family nobody hits anybody. everyone uses manners and logic to have their wants met (needs are met automatically)
We are all people, and people deserve respect.
For example my 13yo daughter is at a sleepover tonight, and I know for a fact that the 'boys' will be showing up at some point.
My only argument is that I didnt want her to go because of the potential trouble that could arise. Her argument is that she is responsible, respects herself too much to just sleep with any of these guys (shes not dating) and will text me to bring her home if she feels uncomfortable.
We had no logical reasons to keep her home so she has gone, and just texted to reassure me that everythings ok.
Im pleased she is being so mature (no whinging or tantrum, she was calm and explained her reasoning rationally and in an adult manner) and trust we raised her well.

MomoJA · Feb 4, 2012

Jeremy+3 said:
</s> 
Not only does it leave children without an understanding of appropriate behaviour it also teaches children that if you don't like what somebody is doing, hitting them is a reasonable response. .<e>

</e></QUOTE>
 
<s></s>I hear/read this over and over and over, several other times just on this thread alone. It seems to make sense on the surface, but it doesn't hold water. <e></SIZE></e></SIZE><e>[/FONT]</e> 
<s></s> <e></SIZE></e></SIZE><e>[/FONT]</e> 
<s></s>Just in my family, for example, of 8 children spanked on a regular basis as we were growing up, only one of my brothers has ever gotten into a fight and only once when he was drunk in college after a football game. It has never even fleetingly occurred to me to hit another person. Becoming physical in a violent way with anyone is a completely foreign reaction to me. The idea of any of my sisters being involved in a slap-down with anyone is laughable. Literally! I’m laughing as I try to imagine it. Trying to imagine my brothers fighting is not so laughable, but disturbing and outside the realm of reasonable possibility. <e></SIZE></e></SIZE><e>[/FONT]</e> 
<s></s> <e></SIZE></e></SIZE><e>[/FONT]</e> 
<s></s>However, my daughter has a friend whose parents do not spank but who is always hitting her friends. She has a classmate (in pre-k), a certain frenemy, who I’m pretty sure has been spanked who does bully, but the kids in her class who I know are also spanked are fellow victims of this bully. None of them hit the bully even in self-defense. My daughter bit the heck out of my nephew after he fire-pinched her. She was 1.5 and he was 5.5 and neither had ever been spanked. <e></SIZE></e></SIZE><e>[/FONT]</e> 
<s></s> <e></SIZE></e></SIZE><e>[/FONT]</e> 
<s></s>Like Single-Dad, I am surrounded by peers who were spanked as children, yet I would be shocked if I ever witnessed any of them engaging in physical violence. Excuse me if this sounds snobbish, but this sort of behavior would be beneath them, and I could never associate with people who behave in that way. It just isn’t done in my circles. However, I would guess that about half of my associates spank their children or plan to spank their children when they have them.<e></SIZE></e></SIZE><e>[/FONT]</e> 
<s></s> <e></SIZE></e></SIZE><e>[/FONT]</e> 
<s></s>Suggesting that I or others who were spanked would equate the way our parents disciplined us with any other sort of human relationship is simplistic at best. In fact, a legitimate argument can be made that if we do not interact with our children differently from how we interact with everyone else we are not parenting. Children are not stupid. They instinctively compartmentalize. <e></SIZE></e></SIZE><e>[/FONT]</e> 
<s></s> <e></SIZE></e></SIZE><e>[/FONT]</e> 
<s></s>If you put your child in time-out, do they put their friends in time out? If you take your child’s phone away, do they take away the phones of their friends? If you kiss and cuddle your child when she says something cute or clever, does she kiss and cuddle her friends? You get the point. Children learn how to interact with others by seeing others interact and by WHAT you teach them, not by HOW their parents discipline them. <e></SIZE></e></SIZE><e>[/FONT]</e> 
<s></s> <e></SIZE></e></SIZE><e>[/FONT]</e> 
<s></s>Like Single-Dad has said, the studies cited on this thread do not reflect reality. I don’t know how or where they are performed, but it is not on the average citizen who was spanked. Either that, or the data is disingenuous or purposely manipulated. If these studies were accurate, we would have killed each other into extinction about 15 generations after existence. <e></SIZE></e></SIZE><e>[/FONT]</e></r>

parentastic · Feb 5, 2012

If these studies were accurate, we would have killed each other into extinction about 15 generations after existence. </SIZE>[/FONT][/QUOTE]

It's called resilience.

Human being routinely abuses each others, make war, kill each other on a crazy scale, and we are still not extinct.

It's not because something is detrimental and damaging that we can't survive it and manage to grow and thrive despite it.
But that doesn't make it acceptable either.

Those studies are accurate.
See Alice Miller's "the root of violence" for the huge, but subtle impact spanking has on us, generation after generation.
Miller, A. (1990). For your own good: hidden cruelty in child-rearing and the roots of violence. USA: Farra, Straus and Giroux.

parentastic · Feb 5, 2012

bssage said:
"What Research Tells Us About Its Effects on Children was conceived by the advisory board of End Physical Punishment of Children"

bssage said:

No agenda there.

Click to expand...

The full citation in text:

The idea for the Report on Physical Punishment in the United States: What Research Tells Us About Its Effects on Children was conceived by the advisory board of End Physical Punishment of Children
(EPOCH-USA) and was inspired by the Joint Statement on Physical Punishment of Children and Youth, a Canadian document published by Coalition on Physical Punishment of Children and Youth and authored by Joan Durrant and Ron Ensom.
The decision to create this report was supported by representatives from several major child-serving organizations who collectively wished to clarify the national discussion of this issue through the creation and dissemination of an empirically based report. The main goal of this report is to provide a concise review of the empirical research to date on the effects of physical punishment on children. The impetus for this summary was a growing frustration among many professionals working with or for children and families that the media and the public at large were not aware of the growing research literature demonstrating few positive and many negative potential impacts of physical punishment on children. The report thus synthesizes one hundred years of social science research and many hundreds of published studies on physical punishment. This body of research has been conducted by professionals in the fields of psychology, medicine, education, social work, and sociology, among other fields. (my emphasis added)

The point is that this report was requested by the board against physical punishment, but it contains only a compilation of hundreds of research, and accurate picture of where we are at today in terms of knowledge about physical punishment.By the way, the author you cited - Larzelere, one of the only social scientist for physical punishment - is also included in this compilation, including the very paper you quoted in your message #7 in this thread.

This compilation is not a primary research. It's a literature review, which encompasses a hundred years of research, and several hundreds of research, some of which involved children followed for decades into longitudinal studies.

Moreover, this paper is endorsed by multi-disciplinary professionals: not only psychologist, but also professionals in the fields of "medicine, education, social work, and sociology", among other fields.

Incidentally, Larzelere, the scientist you quoted, is heavily involved and financed by religious organizations. I am suggesting here that this cannot be less of an "agenda" than a compilation of hundreds of studies, inlcuding the one you cite.

bssage said:
Where does it state the methodology of the studies they are siting. All we get is this.Which is what I have been saying about her studies stands. No distinction between a deliberate reasoned spank and someone who beats their child on a regular basis.

The sources are all there, by the way, at the end of the report: 130 sources are cited. You can always go on google scholar and seek them if you want to look at their methodology and conclusions.
Yes, most studies look at parents who spank regularly, rather than once or twice a year.

The point is that spanking leaves its psychological mark. It's a trauma, no matter how you put it, for a child whose brain is wired to seek comfort and help from the very person who is giving them pain and humiliation.
Those studies tells us that spanking is harmful. We can argue whether it is harmful or not in small doses, but why even take the chance?

If you learn that your pipes leak some lead, and that lead is poison - why so much energy to try to see how much more contaminated water you can drink before you feel the effect? Why not just change the pipes for some lead-free pipes?

bssage said:
I am sticking to my guns. Show me a report that says occasional spank, say once every couple of years, once a year, once every several months has long term harmful effects. I have not seen it.

This video, called "The bomb in the brain", explains the effect one ONE single abusive situation, defined as an "advert child experience". It is based on the ACE study, from Dr. Felitti.
No, of course, "mild" spanking is not like child abuse. I am not saying this. Bit please, see what happens when even only ONE SINGLE traumatic event happens in the early childhood life of a child. Comparatively, a mild spanking may be way, way lighter. But it's still a traumatic event: fear, humiliation, force used against a fragile body coming from a much stronger, taller and more powerful person, from which the child depends psychologically and is attached to for safety.
If a single abusive experience can have THAT powerful of an effect, why take the chance? There are so many perfectly viable alternatives.

And these 100+ research make at least one thing perfectly clear: spanking is NEVER effective on the long run.

bssage said:
Your second link does not work.

Apologies for this, I will try to see if I can find the full study somewhere. Some of these papers are only available with a university library subscription.

MomoJA · Feb 5, 2012

parentastic said:
It's called resilience.

And you have made the point. Thank you.

Children, mankind, are resilient. When children get a shot at the doctor's, a much more traumatic event than a swat on the bottom, they snap back. When they fall down and break a leg, a much more traumatic event than a swat on the bottom, they snap back. When they watch Bambi and see the mother shot, a much more traumatic event than a swat on the bottom, they survive. When they touch a burning stove, a much more traumatic event than a swat on the hand, they snap back. These things happen. They are part of life. They build character.

I hope my child falls down and scrapes her knees. What a pitiful life she would be living if she didn't engage in activities that inevitibly lead to this happining some day. I hope she gets her heart broken one day. What a cautious life she would be living if this never happened. I hope she learns disappointment. I don't want to see any of it happen, but I will because I love her and that is my job. If some other parent includes in his job teaching some of the lessons of life with a swat on the bottom, he is not doing any more harm than a scraped knee. Less! And it is a hysterical reaction to believe otherwise.

But I'm not getting into this with you. I was not responding to you, and I will not respond to you if you just leave me out of your responses.

And when a study tells me that salt is going to cause me cancer, which studies did about 30 years ago when I was a teenager, I say that it is not accurate because reality does not support it. It is a hysterical finding. Sure enough. It turns out I was right and the studies were wrong, or so newer studies say. Apply that analogy as you will.

singledad · Feb 5, 2012

I've carefully read through the last page or two of this thread, and I the light went on for me. I think I finally understand how the two sides of the argument can be so convinced that the other side is dead wrong, and even provide proof.

Both sides are right.

See, we're not comparing apples with apples.

When the anti-spank group talk about children who are spanked, they talk about children who are spanked regularly - like once a week - and severely, even using objects etc. When the pro-spank (or the neutrals like me and MomoJA) talk about children who are spanked, we talk about children who are spanked carefully and deliberately, once or twice a year, at most. These children, according to what I understand, would have been counted as children who were NOT spanked in those studies. My friends would also fall in this category, which would explain why they don't show any of effects of spanking.

I would dare to say that the very act not only excluding children who weren't spanked in two weeks from the "spanked" group, but actually including them in the NOT SPANKED group, is already an admission that the bad effects only occur when spanking is taken to the extreme. Surely, if she felt that mild exposure would have the same consequences, only to a lesser extent, she wouldn't want those children distorting the findings for her control group? I argue that these studies do not show the difference between children who were spanked and those who weren't, but between those who were spanked excessively or even abused, and those who were spanked mildly or not at all.

In short, these studies aren't about the effects of spanking, they're about the effects of excessive spanking/abuse.

Am I wrong? If I am, please explain to me how I am wrong.

To those in the know - is there perhaps a study comparing children who are spanked lightly and infrequently, both to children who are spanked regularly and to children who were NEVER spanked? I'd find that really interesting.

Even though I know that once again I'm not comparing apples to apples, I can't help but think of other, more physical things that are very bad for us in excessive amounts, but harmless, beneficial, or even essential in smaller amounts. Salt comes to mind, or red wine, or vaccines containing weak strains of deadly bacteria... Please note - This is just an interesting aside I'm not convinced that ANY spanking is beneficial. Being spanked in school certainly didn't teach me much.

I just don't believe that parents who do spank deserve the bad rap they are getting.

ElliottCarasDad · Feb 5, 2012

As someone who works in science....

Scientist: "What were the results of the test?"

Technician: "What do you want them to be?"

NancyM · Feb 5, 2012

PianoLover said:
Hi Bssage first I would like to begin by saying I respect you because I think you truly want the best for your children, I am going to take the time to write this lengthy post out of that respect in the believe that you are open minded enough to consider what I am saying in the hope that it rings true for you.

That being said, I absolutely take objection to you referring to violence, however mild, as a "tool" in your "box" as though it's just something you can apply like a spanner to get the results you want. That is a minimisation which I think is how people are generally thinking when they use physical punishment, sadly while the spanner can be used it is really a hammer in masquerade.

While I am glad that you took the time to explain why you hit, it seems evident that the lesson at the bottom of physical punishment is that the more powerful party can use violence to coerce the less powerful into doing what the more powerful party wants.

If your child goes into school and hits someone how can you possibly turn around and say that a person should not use violence to get what they want when you are still using violence to get your child to do what you want sometimes. The mind boggles at such duplicity of word and action!

Even though you think you had it coming I maintain that parents spank because they are not trained in other methods. The alternative to spanking is not "doing nothing" or "letting away with murder" there are many alternatives that WORK and save an act of violence.
<SIZE size="75">(We should also excercise caution in thinking that just because we THINK we had it coming we actually did, I definately used to think this way about being his sometimes, but actually even children who are severly phsically abused or even abused sexually can blame themselves. This is very common as the formative ego would prefer to think it has some control over these situations than none at all.)</SIZE>

It is very unlikely that if you were NOT spanked but your parents knew these other techniques you would turn around and say "gee, I wish I'd been spanked I would have learned a lot better!" It just doesn't happen. Most likely your communication skills would have been even better than they already are and you'd be a natural at conflict resolution.

WE have to learn these tools because or parents didn't teach us them. Yes that means a bit more work but it is SO worth it.

Just remember that just because the DESIRED effect was achieved, that doesn't mean that there aren't OTHER ways to gain those same effects that don't involve violence or teaching a double standard ("it's ok for me to hit you to get what I want for your own good, but not for you to hit to get what you want" )

Dear bssage I hope this helps.

Lots of love,

Antony (PianoLover)

I agree completely with what you wrote here PainoLover ( not directed at bssage though) I'm just in agreement with how you explained your thoughts and ideas about hitting children.

I too feel hitting anyone (no matter how light or infrequent, or how controlled) is wrong, and particularly when inflicted on our own precious children.

ElliottCarasDad · Feb 5, 2012

if only this issue was as cut and dry as abortion....

parentastic · Feb 5, 2012

I think that this whole thread (and any other thread related to spanking) quickly becomes entrenched and complex to analyze because many different aspects gets meshed up all together.

Here are some:

<LIST>

<LI>
Is spanking detrimental on the short term?</LI>
<LI>
Is spanking detrimental on the long term?</LI>
<LI>
Is spanking effective on the short term? If so, effective to achieve what?</LI>
<LI>
Is spanking effective on the long term? If so, effective to achieve what?</LI>
<LI>
At which frequency is it detrimental / acceptable?</LI>
<LI>
At which intensity is it detrimental / acceptable?</LI>
<LI>
How do we measure if it is detrimental on the short term?</LI>
<LI>
How do we measure if it is detrimental on the long term?</LI>
<LI>
Is spanking ethically or morally right?</LI>
<LI>
Is spanking a right?</LI>
<LI>
Are there effective replacement for spanking?</LI>
<LI>
What does spanking teaches children?</LI>
<LI>
What messages does spanking sends to a child?</LI>
<LI>
Where does spanking stops and abuse starts?</LI>
<LI>
What is the definition of spanking?</LI>

</LIST>
Research have answered to some of these questions, to great extent.
For some others, it either fails to offer conclusive proof, or it simply cannot be addressed with science.
Some of these questions relates to values, ethics and worldview. Some requires parents to evaluate their own motives, short and long term goals, and beliefs.

This is my own take on it:

Is spanking detrimental on the short term?
It causes a chemical reaction in the brain that triggers survival mechanism (cortisol, adrenaline) and negative emotions (fear, resentment) and prevents the higher thinking function (frontal cortex) to learn and think clearly. Hence, at best, it's counterproductive to the desire to "teach" something.

Is spanking detrimental on the long term?
It erodes the quality of the attachment between parent and child and causes children to become submissive (personality and identity recedes at the back while the child becomes a people-pleaser, low self-esteem, increased aggressive behavior against others, bullying) or rebellious (promotes ODD, Substance abuse, depression, escalation)

Is spanking effective on the short term? To achieve what?
Yes, if your child falls into submission, it is very effective on the short to term to achieve compliance and get children to stop an unwanted behavior. If your child falls into rebellion, it escalates and leads to higher confrontations, more severe corporal punishment and possibly child abuse, unless the child's will is broken and they cave.

Is spanking effective on the long term? To achieve what?
No, it is not. Research has proven, time and time again, that behaviors suppressed through corporal punishments are only temporarily set aside by fear, while the intrinsic motivation has not been addressed. Worst, research has proven that on the long term, children who are spanked become more violent and their behavior more difficult to manage.

At which frequency is it detrimental / acceptable?
Research cannot answer this clearly, because it's very hard to measure, due to the very nature of qualitative studies: Thousands of other factors are mitigating whatever detrimental effect may be happening with each spanking on the long run. Only when the effect it very pronounced (through frequency or severity) can we measure it and compare it to control groups. All we know is that the more frequent it happens, the more pronounced the measurable end-result effect a decade later.

At which intensity is it detrimental / acceptable? Where does spanking stops and abuse starts?
Research cannot answer this clearly. We know clearly that certain behaviors are child abuse. And we also can agree fairly clearly that some very mild form of spanking, given without a state of anger, only on some parts of the body, is not child abuse. But drawing the line is very difficult, as it depends on culture, beliefs, what we know of research today, policies, social norms, etc.
Note that these same behaviors would have not been labeled as "child abuse" 50 years ago - but that doesn't make them any more acceptable. 

How do we measure if it is detrimental on the short term?
it is very difficult to do so. Children are resilient. They can suffer a blow to their self-esteem, their attachment might shift slightly from secure to insecure, but measuring this in an objective, scientific way is difficult at best. We do know however that the detrimental impact don't happen suddenly at the 100th repetition. If we can measure a detrimental effect after 100 repetitions, chances are each single hit contributed slightly to the global impact.

How do we measure if it is detrimental on the long term?
We compare a group who has been spanked with a group who has not been spanked, and we follow them for a few decades and see if there are some statistically significant patterns that emerges (quantitative methods). We can also do qualitative studies and attempt to understand what is going on in the brain when it happens (the mechanism of attachment. The mechanism of trauma from an attached adult. etc), so that we are no longer dependent on statistics to try to understand the detrimental effects.

Is spanking ethically or morally right?
This is where science stops. That is yours to decide.
My own position on this has already been made abundantly clear on previous threads on this topic in this forums.

Is spanking a right?
I believe no-one has a right to violate the physical integrity of anyone, whether that other person is a child or not.
But this is just me.

Are there effective replacement for spanking?
There are dozens upon dozens of others ways a child can be disciplined. From time-outs to grounding, from reparation to empowerment, problem solving, etc. Some of these are ten thousands times more effective, some others are not much more effective.
Most likely from what I have seen around, parents using spanking simply lack other effective tools in their toolbox, and resort to spanking as a "last resort" method.

What does spanking teaches children? What messages does spanking sends to a child?
It models that violence is an acceptable way to solve a problem, and that who ever has the power can use it.

What is the definition of spanking?
For me, it's the use of force, through fear, pain, and humiliation, to coerce a child into compliance.

And for you, how would you answer these questions?

singledad · Feb 6, 2012

Fantastic post, parentastic

Now I think we're finally getting somewhere.

parentastic said:
And for you, how would you answer these questions?

Just to clarify my answers:
<LIST>

<LI>
By "In the short term", I understand the immediate effects of a single spanking that does not occur as a pattern of regular spankings.</LI>
<LI>
By "In the long term" I understand the cummulative effect of regular spankings over a period of time.</LI>

</LIST>

Is spanking detrimental on the short term?
Based on real-world observation, not science, I don't believe it is. I will not dispute the effects you mention, since I know you would not say it if it wasn't based on science. I believe, however, that the mere presense of adrenaline is not necessarily harmful, depending of too many factors to mention here.

Is spanking detrimental on the long term?
Yes, I think so. A child eventually becomes resistent to it. At best, it will stop being effective. At worst, it will cause the child to rebel against the spanking, which escalates into rebellion against all forms of authority. Using spanking as the default reaction to and and all acting out can also easily lead to real problems being overlooked.

Is spanking effective on the short term? If so, effective to achieve what?
Where the objective is to get a child to immediately stop a particular behaviour and never repeat it - I've seen it succeed. We can spend the next year debating on exactly WHY the child stopped, but if the behaviour involves immediate danger, I beleive it is mission accomplished - the child is safe. Whether or not it is effective in teaching a child critical thinking and eventually give her the ability to decide for herself what is wrong or right is a different story. In short - I believe there are better, probably more effective ways to teach that.

Is spanking effective on the long term? If so, effective to achieve what?
No. I think I've already answered this question above.

At which frequency is it detrimental / acceptable?
At which intensity is it detrimental / acceptable?
How do we measure if it is detrimental on the short term?
How do we measure if it is detrimental on the long term?
What does spanking teaches children?
What messages does spanking sends to a child?
Where does spanking stops and abuse starts?
I want to answer these questions together, as I believe they address different facets of the same boundary.

Just to bring those who haven't been on the board long enough to know my history up to speed and enable them to understand where I am coming from:

As a child, I experienced a wide range of things that fall in various places on the spanking/abuse scale. What I can report is is that very often, it was the circumstances around a slap or a beating that stayed with me, long after the pain - Insults that accompanied it. The fact that, in my father's case, there was no way to predict what would earn punishment - it was just too inconsistent. The things that weren't there - love, support, understanding. And finally, when it eventually dawned on my that my life was in real danger. The one thing that never came up, even after more than a decade of therapy, was the spankings I received at school. It was just - nothing. I believe that when I acted up against the teachers, it was mostly to get them to try something else - to talk to me, ask me what is wrong, etc.

Now, with this in mind, here's how I see it:
The line between spanking and abuse is where it stops being about teaching the child, and starts being about hurting the child, relieving the parent's own anger or deliberately breaking the child's spirit. It also has a lot to do with the relationship between the parent and child in general.

 Check list:
<LIST type="decimal">

<LI>
Does the child receive regular, loving attention at other times? (ie. The spanking, or even the comforting afterwards isn't the only attention the child gets)</LI>
<LI>
On an average day, does the child feel safe and loved?</LI>
<LI>
Does the child understand that the spanking is a punishment and not a form or recreation or a random display of power by the parent?</LI>
<LI>
Does the child understand why he is getting spanked, and how to avoid it happening again?</LI>
<LI>
Could the child, in fairness, be blamed for what he did? (ie. It was deliberate, he knew he shouldn't have done it, he knows what he should have done instead).</LI>
<LI>
The concept of "escalating consequences" is clear - ie. lesser "offences" attract lesser punishments - spanking isn't used for any and every offence.</LI>

</LIST>
IMO, if you answer yes to all these, there is no abuse. If you answer no to any one of 1 -3, the child is definitely being abused. If you answer No to any of 4-6, you're skating on thin ice, and should take a long, hard look at your parenting style.

<LIST>

<LI>
A no to question 1 holds real danger of the relationship between love and pain being distorted. Abusive relationships, BDSM, multi-generational abuse, etc results.</LI>
<LI>
A no to question 2 causes indescribable fear, loneliness, anxiety, anger, etc, etc.</LI>
<LI>
A no to question 3 teaches all sorts of twisted lessons, many of which was already mentioned on this thread.</LI>
<LI>
A no to questions 4 to 6 can lead to anger, resentment, rebellion, etc.</LI>

</LIST>

When it crosses that line, is when it becomes unacceptable and detrimental. The message stops being about wrong and right and consequences, and starts being about power, submission and "I can do what I want because nobody cares about you".

Note that I made no statements about how many times the child is spanked, where, with what, and how severly. If you aren't spanking in the heat of anger, if you aren't focussed on inflicting as much pain as possible, if you are sensitive to your child's reaction, you will not go overboard. I believe that laying down rules on what, where, how and with what focusses the attention in the wrong place. I creates the impression that a single swat with a bare hand on the butt is always ok, or that a spanking with a paddle is necessarily abuse. Neither of these need be true. I consider the very mild spankings my father sometimes gave us as abusive as the worst beating he ever gave us because it wasn't a loving parent, enforcing fair and consistent rules. I don't consider six swats from the school headmaster, with a sjambok, abusive at all because even though it may be excessive by today's standards, I knew what was expected, and deliberately did the opposite, knowing very well what the consequences would be.

Its just not that black and white.

Is spanking ethically or morally right?
Keeping everything I said above in mind, I don't have too much of a problem with it if parents spank within limits. I don't do it myself - it just wouldn't feel right to me - but I have no right to force my value-system on others. I'm sure I do a lot of things that other people may consider morally wrong

Is spanking a right?
I believe a parent has the right to punish a child within limits - once again, keeping what I've said above in mind. If the parent decides that spanking is the best solution he knows for a given problem, taking into account my check list above, I don't believe anyone has the right to stop them. If someone abuses a child, it is my duty to intervene, but if the parents is not crossing that line, the most I have the right to do is to suggest alternatives.

Are there effective replacement for spanking?
Yes. That is another one of the reasons why I don't spank.

----

I'd be interested to hear your comments on my take.

parentastic · Feb 6, 2012

singledad said:
Fantastic post, parentastic Now I think we're finally getting somewhere.

Thanks

singledad said:
<LIST>

<LI>

By "In the short term", I understand the immediate effects of a single spanking that does not occur as a pattern of regular spankings.</LI>
<LI>

By "In the long term" I understand the cummulative effect of regular spankings over a period of time.</LI>

</LIST>

Yes, I agree with you about the definition above for short and long term... although I am not sure completely, because I think even a single spanking has long term effects - even if we can't really see it because it gets mitigated by other behaviors and situations.
I think this is a tricky concept.
I've scratched my head over and over about how to convey what I am thinking here, so bear with me... I hope this will make sense:
I'd like to compare the notion of "short / long term" with smoking cigarette.

<LIST>

<LI>
"In the long term", smoking cigarette is harmful as we know it causes cancer (through destruction of a certain gene) and respiratory problems.</LI>
<LI>
But what about "short term"? Does it mean a single cigarette is not harmful? Obviously a you probably won't die of a single cigarette. And its effect on your heath might not be pronounced enough for you to see it in any clear way. But at the same time, I think you are still injecting poisonous smoke into your lungs, sending nicotine chemical into your brain, etc.</LI>

</LIST>
So this is how I see spanking. But the comparison is not very good because I think even one single spanking in a child's entire life is already a significant impact, IMO, both on short and long term, even without any repetition, and I will elaborate on that below.

singledad said:
Is spanking detrimental on the short term?
Based on real-world observation, not science, I don't believe it is. I will not dispute the effects you mention, since I know you would not say it if it wasn't based on science. I believe, however, that the mere presense of adrenaline is not necessarily harmful, depending of too many factors to mention here.

Yes, I think that the mere presence of adrenaline is not a problem. After all, a child will experience fear in many other situations, and there is great resilience and learning in survival situations.
What is going on after a single spank on the short term is observable: fear, screams, tears, resistance, humiliation, shock. Are those acceptable, that's another question, and not an easy one to answer!

I totally agree with how you described the spanking as a repeated behavior over a long time.

Here is my question though:
What is the effect of a single spanking on the long term?
And to be more precise, what is the effect of the very first spank a child ever receives on the long term?
It's a difficult question to answer because I think it's impossible to measure it directly. We don't have a comparison point with what it would have been without it. But I think it has a profound effect: it changes the basis of the relationship between parent and child.
It introduces the notion of force.
Can you remember the look of shock and disbelief on a child's eyes as they are spanked for the first time? Their brain cannot conceive of the concept of being physically harmed by their caregiver. They are placed in a situation of paradox. They are forced to revise their concept of the world and see that awesome, wonderful being who gave them everything and is the center of their world as a potential danger.

I know the effects to be deep... because I know the attachment mechanisms in the brain. But I can't show it on the long term.
Here is what I think is happening, with no proof (pure haunch!).
I think that when it's not repeated, when it happens only once or twice in a lifetime, the emotional trauma will stay with the child for a long time - years - but eventually and very slowly will recede and be mitigated and erased by years of care and love. (This is all unconscious, by the way). And so the attachment will go back to secure. With each passing spank, it will trigger back the emotional trauma and it will take longer to return to secure.

singledad said:
Where the objective is to get a child to immediately stop a particular behaviour and never repeat it - I've seen it succeed. We can spend the next year debating on exactly WHY the child stopped, but if the behaviour involves immediate danger, I beleive it is mission accomplished - the child is safe. Whether or not it is effective in teaching a child critical thinking and eventually give her the ability to decide for herself what is wrong or right is a different story. In short - I believe there are better, probably more effective ways to teach that.

I think we are on the same page here! I have seen it succeed also, but I am under the belief that what really worked was the teaching time after the spanking, not the spanking itself - which I believe was even getting in the way of the teaching (because of the strong emotions involved and how it hinders some learning activities of the higher brain).

I can understand the need to act and do something in dangerous situations! I have seen my little nephew (3 y old now) run from his dad's grip and launch himself on the sidewalk and the very stern and unpleasant talk he received for it by his dad... How he sat down on the ground in the middle of the sidewalk to be on his child's level, made a very deeply concerned face and locked his son into his arms in a tight grip.. then how he expressed his fear, how scared he was... and how my nephew took a few seconds to switch his mood from "I am playing!" to "oh oh this looks serious" to crying and "catching on" to his dad's mood. I think it was powerfully effective, and it needed no corporal punishment to be effective.

I just re-read your story, singledad, and even though I have read it before as it was discussed on other thread, it always grip me and touches me deeply.

I'd like to comment on the checklist, it was super interesting to read!
It makes a lot of sense. I shudder when I think of children in situations where none of these things are present. It's a powerful description you did with these checklist item, singledad. Thanks for this.

I think the only point on the checklist where I feel mitigated is #3:

singledad said:
3. Does the child understand that the spanking is a punishment and not a form or recreation or a random display of power by the parent? A no to question 3 teaches all sorts of twisted lessons, many of which was already mentioned on this thread.

I think young children cannot understand this, no matter how much you may explain it. For instance, a 2 years old running in the street runs because he explores and play - he has no concept that it's wrong to do so or what "danger" means. The spanking will appear completely random to him, even if he has been warned not to do that before. Running and exploring is an impulse, his brain didn't even let him think of your warning anyway when it happened.

Also, I think no children, regardless of their age, can understand this emotionally. I believe that their brain cannot reconcile the paradox of emotional fear, humiliation and pain from a person with whom you are attached and dependent for care and love - even if it happens only once, especially the first time it happens.

I LOVE these 6 check-list items! It really makes the whole thing much more clear to my mind. To read it directly makes it more clear to me, because I can see how (IMO) #3 is where it is a problem for me.
I think this message you described is always perceived, at least unconsciously, from #3:

singledad said:
"The message stops being about wrong and right and consequences, and starts being about power, submission and "I can do what I want because nobody cares about you".

Thank you for sharing your views, I understand where you come from much better now.

MomoJA · Feb 6, 2012

singledad said:
Check list:
<LIST type="decimal">

<LI>

Does the child receive regular, loving attention at other times? (ie. The spanking, or even the comforting afterwards isn't the only attention the child gets)</LI>
<LI>

On an average day, does the child feel safe and loved?</LI>
<LI>

Does the child understand that the spanking is a punishment and not a form or recreation or a random display of power by the parent?</LI>
<LI>

Does the child understand why he is getting spanked, and how to avoid it happening again?</LI>
<LI>

Could the child, in fairness, be blamed for what he did? (ie. It was deliberate, he knew he shouldn't have done it, he knows what he should have done instead).</LI>
<LI>

The concept of "escalating consequences" is clear - ie. lesser "offences" attract lesser punishments - spanking isn't used for any and every offence.</LI>

</LIST>IMO, if you answer yes to all these, there is no abuse. If you answer no to any one of 1 -3, the child is definitely being abused. If you answer No to any of 4-6, you're skating on thin ice, and should take a long, hard look at your parenting style.

<LIST>

<LI>

A no to question 1 holds real danger of the relationship between love and pain being distorted. Abusive relationships, BDSM, multi-generational abuse, etc results.</LI>
<LI>

A no to question 2 causes indescribable fear, loneliness, anxiety, anger, etc, etc.</LI>
<LI>

A no to question 3 teaches all sorts of twisted lessons, many of which was already mentioned on this thread.</LI>
<LI>

A no to questions 4 to 6 can lead to anger, resentment, rebellion, etc.</LI>

</LIST>
When it crosses that line, is when it becomes unacceptable and detrimental. The message stops being about wrong and right and consequences, and starts being about power, submission and "I can do what I want because nobody cares about you".

.

This is an excellent analysis. I agree completely with what you have written above!

GavinH · Feb 6, 2012

"Based on real-world observation, not science, I don't believe it is. I will not dispute the effects you mention, since I know you would not say it if it wasn't based on science"

I would not really classify the research or studies in this area as scientific in any way. Science requires proof, control groups and the ability to reproduce the results. It seems to me that the studies cited in this an other threads are full of opinion and bias.

IADad · Feb 6, 2012

ElliottCarasDad said:
if only this issue was as cut and dry as abortion....

how true (just didn't want this to go by uncommented...)

IADad · Feb 6, 2012

GavinH said:
"Based on real-world observation, not science, I don't believe it is. I will not dispute the effects you mention, since I know you would not say it if it wasn't based on science"

I would not really classify the research or studies in this area as scientific in any way. Science requires proof, control groups and the ability to reproduce the results. It seems to me that the studies cited in this an other threads are full of opinion and bias.

I think this is an important perspective.

Studies can draw parallels between spanking and outsomes in the child's life, but can they isolate the spanking as the direct cause? What about other issues in the child's environment?

I don't think this is a problem for science to solve, rather for science to give us some input, some things to consider in making our parenting decisions.

parentastic · Feb 6, 2012

IADad said:
I don't think this is a problem for science to solve, rather for science to give us some input, some things to consider in making our parenting decisions.

I don't think science can ever solve human problems - whether these are ethical, social or relational problems. They can inform human problems, and these information and very reliable, but they still have to be interpreted.
Moreover, they are often interpreted or discarded by human beings with their own frame of reference, values, worldview, political agendas, etc.

Still, what happens in a child's brain when they are spanked, is a reality we now know with a fairly good level of accuracy, thanks to neuro-science and the ability to scan brain activity live as situations are happening.

ElliottCarasDad · Feb 6, 2012

parentastic said:
I don't think science can ever solve human problems - whether these are ethical, social or relational problems. They can inform human problems, and these information and very reliable, but they still have to be interpreted.
Moreover, they are often interpreted or discarded by human beings with their own frame of reference, values, worldview, political agendas, etc.

I love how you qualify results...

parentastic said:
Still, what happens in a child's brain when they are spanked, is a reality we now know with a fairly good level of accuracy, thanks to neuro-science and the ability to scan brain activity live as situations are happening.

...then exemplify your beliefs

SPANKING revisited...

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