singledad said:
He has no true concept of what the words he uses so casually really mean. He probably has never experienced real trauma in his life, and has never even met someone who suffers from PTSD.
Hello singledad, good to read you. I always appreciate the pertinence of your responses. As for PL, as he has already responded to this, there isn't much I can add. I think I can relate, certainly, because even though I have had my own experience of being spanked, I have not lived such profound trauma as PSTD or child abuse - and I am grateful for that. I think it's really important to acknowledge that the depth of distress can be beyond description, and that there is a real, terrible truth behind these words that must be respected, and not used lightly.
I myself have spend several year as an S.O. for a women who had been sexually assaulted as a child by a family member; I have seen first hand the flashbacks, the pain, the pervasive way this terrible trauma continued to deeply mess her whole life, even 20 years after the fact. So I think it's really important, IMO, to acknowledge that normative spanking is not in the same category, both by respect for the spanking parents who love their children and are genuinely doing what they think is best, and by respect for the people who had to survive deep traumas such as these ones.
singledad said:
I've explained to you how utterly inconsequential my own experiences with spanking (as opposed to abuse) was.
Yes, you did. And, as I have agreed before, I am saying it again: it's clearly different.
singledad said:
Now, you may argue that I was desensitized, and admittedly I would not have a counter-argument. However, I have had my experiences with spanking echoed by so many people from different backgrounds, many of whom are still very close to their parents, and would swear that their parents did an excellent job.
Since I do not know you personally, I would not want to say whether you may or may not be desensitized. Besides, as you pointed out very matter-of-factly, many parents have not lived your kind of background, and are still convinced that spanking is alright, and do not see what might have been wrong with being spanked as a child.
All I could tell you about this, is that psychologist are taught, in their field of study, that the vast majority of parents who were spanked themselves very often see spanking as okay because, when they were children themselves, they had to shut down their emotions and rationalize the violent acts they experienced in order to survive and cope with it - so as it repeats enough time, it becomes engrained and it becomes very difficult to see how it may be perceived from the fresh eyes of a child who has never been spanked before.
Now... and I am carefully walking on eggshells here - this is what is being taught in the field of psychology. Since the entire professional field has been openly criticized here and qualified as "a sick group", where does this lead us? It seems that I am committing the crime of sharing the view of the professional field I was taught in these forums. So I am now being extra cautious to clearly state that this is what I was taught. People will take it for what it is worth for them, no more no less.
Statistically speaking, at least, the numbers are really impressive (to me, at least!) as I learned that there are 70% of chances a parent raises a child in the same kind of attachment type and with the same kind of discipline they were themselves raised.
singledad said:
I think this is the wall you keep running into. You will never convince these people that they were traumatized as children, regardless of how many studies, statistics and scientific finding you trot out. The standard response that 95% of people I know have to spanking debates is - "Well, I was spanked, and I'm just fine".
I think you have perfectly pointed the very heart of the problem, and successfully illustrated the dynamic that is going on in this thread, or in spanking threads in general when the majority of the posters have been spanked themselves.
The wall is so real, so powerful, that entire lines of professions, such as psychology or family counseling, are challenged as "sick" rather than even remotely considering that at least, a part of truth might be found within a hundred years of professional work on child rearing.
singledad said:
Frankly, you have no more right to invalidate those people's experiences
You are right, I do not. If one parent who was spanked as a child says: "I did not feel it was a violent act" and conclude "I turned out fine", who am I to say they are not fine, or that they experienced it in a different way than they say? I totally agree with you.
But, singledad... it's not what I said in these forum, ever. What I said is (and again, I am walking on eggshell and choosing my words carefully now), is that as a child care professional, I was taught that spanking is a violent act, and that it is perceived by children as such when it happens, causing various effects similar in several respect to an attachment trauma. It's unfortunate that this position, as I am voicing it on these forum, hits the wall as parents are evaluating how they were spanked as children themselves, and how they seem (from my point of view, not saying that's the intent) to gang on the messenger, rather than consider the content of the message.
It does not leave me with much choice, and I am all ears if you'd like to offer more advices. So far, I can:
- Continue writing about what I have being trained to do, and what I have been taught, professionally, in these forums (something I do freely and on my free time, with no benefits by the way) and obviously upset people,
- Pretend everything I have studied for 5 years, all the experience I have had actually helping families and solving family relation problems and attachment issues were, in fact, all "sick" and wrong,
- Pretend everything I have studied for 5 years is "just my opinion", or
- Stop contributing on this topic, or even possibly on this forum
If I missed a possibility, please let me know.
singledad said:
... (and destroy their relationships with their parents in the process)
I want to respectfully address that part of your post.
My father did spank me, as I said a few time before, although it was not very often and certainly not in an way that could be called "abuse".
When I started my studies in the field of child care, I quickly learned about physical punishment and their effects. I had some conversation with my dad about this, at some point.
But I have an *excellent* relationship with my dad, who is an adorable and sweet man today.
I beleive, in my opinion, that you can face the fact that spanking is a violent act, and look at what the various child-related professional fields say about spanking, and in no way does that destroys your relationship with your parents in the process. It certainly didn't destroy mine.
My dad did not know at the time about this. Why should I hold him responsible in any way? He obviously knew better at some point in his own life, because he decided to change his ways completely with my brother, who never received a single spanking. Even if he had not, there would still be nothing to blame him for.
singledad said:
[about studies] I would even dare call that fraudulent... She was comparing children who were spanked excessively to children who were spanked mildly/infrequently. Her study results showed the effects of excessive spanking/abuse. NOT the effects of "spanking". Seen in that light, her results also make a lot more sense! How many of these other studies applied similar parameters? Can you see how things like that undermine the credibility of the entire field of study?
The problem is that (unfortunately) most studies aren't fully downloadable by the grand public, for copyrighted reasons. But the full text usually has a "methodology" section that clearly outlines the choices made by the researcher, and a "discussion" methods that criticizes these choices and clearly outline what the research might mean or not mean. These studies are published in professional peer reviewed journals: they are analyzed and criticized in detail by other professionals from the same field before they are allowed to be published; and then other professional tear it down with a new article and counter studies. In the end, it is not ONE single study that matter, it is the general body of consensual knowledge that emerges from the collection of studies and counter studies on a given field. And what is taught to professionals as they learn the tool of their trade, so to speak, is the collective sum - the <U>
<I>synthesis</I></U> of all this.
But enough said. I am not here to defend the entire professional field of child care. I can say what I learned and what I practice as I help people. Or I can shut up. Whether the readers decide they'd rather believe it, inquire about it, or discard it completely, is entierly up to each individual reader. I'd love to do something about it so everyone feels respected, listened to, and validated. But I don't see what more I can say?
