Continuation of "how do you explain gay?"...

Polygloth · Oct 27, 2011

There is a big difference between how city parents explain "where the babies come from" with how country side parents do so. When you live in a farm you are use to see everyday the rooster with the hen, the horse with the mare, pigs, ducks, etc... so that question is quite easy to explain if it is asked by the children.

What we do is to watch together a lot of documentaries about wild animals, actually since before the kids actually started talking. In these documentaries you usually see the lion on the lioness, fish laying and fertilizing eggs, plant reproduction, and so on.

The gay question... I have been thinking a lot about how to face it if it is raised some day. I still don't know what will be my answer, but for sure it will be related with the animal kingdom. Maybe a lion who think he is a lioness?

We will see when it will happen but what worries me more is how to avoid not being biased if the second question is: But if all the lions turn gay how they will have cubs?

parentastic · Oct 27, 2011

Polygloth said:
The gay question... I have been thinking a lot about how to face it if it is raised some day. I still don't know what will be my answer, but for sure it will be related with the animal kingdom. Maybe a lion who think he is a lioness?

No need to makup stories of animals who thinks they are other animals...
There is plenty of gay relationships between same-gender animals; certain even forms "pair-bonds". Google it.

Polygloth said:
We will see when it will happen but what worries me more is how to avoid not being biased if the second question is: But if all the lions turn gay how they will have cubs?

You can then explain to your children that you cannot "turn gay".
Either you are born gay or you aren't.
And it's unlikely that an entier spicies would be born in a way that would make them extinct, the same way a whole spicies isn't being born sterile in a single generation.

Polygloth · Oct 27, 2011

parentastic said:
No need to makup stories of animals who thinks they are other animals...
There is plenty of gay relationships between same-gender animals; certain even forms "pair-bonds". Google it.

You can then explain to your children that you cannot "turn gay".
Either you are born gay or you aren't.
And it's unlikely that an entier spicies would be born in a way that would make them extinct, the same way a whole spicies isn't being born sterile in a single generation.

Please change "turn" for any word you like, but the question here is how to explain that in simple words.

Polygloth · Oct 27, 2011

Sorry I forgot to add, with all due respect, there are some who are born gay, that is on their genes. I know some people who showed it since they were little kids. But also you have the sex addict who turns gay because he/she does not find enough pleasure with a person from opposite gender.

Anyways, that is a discussion to have on another website.

parentastic · Oct 27, 2011

Polygloth said:
Please change "turn" for any word you like, but the question here is how to explain that in simple words.

Sorry I forgot to add, with all due respect, there are some who are born gay, that is on their genes. I know some people who showed it since they were little kids. But also you have the sex addict who turns gay because he/she does not find enough pleasure with a person from opposite gender.

Anyways, that is a discussion to have on another website.

Polygloth, I am sorry but it's not just a question of using a word for another. This is at the very crux of the whole argument.
I would invite you, respectfully, to actually join diversity groups and ask members of the LGBTQ community themselves.

By the way this is true for any minority group. If you truly want to understand them, and respect them, and educate your children accordingly, you have to ask THEM how they see things, not how you think things are from your own position as a member of a majority group.
No white person can "know" what it is like to be black. No straight person can "know" what it is like to be gay/lesbian. And so on.

The reality is that:
<LIST>

<LI>
Sexual orientation isn't an Either/Or condition. See the Kinsley Scale. In reality, human beings are attracted to both men and women, on a scale that varies from totally attracted to opposite gender / not at all to same gender, all the way to totally attracted to same gender/ not at all to opposite gender, with all the nuances in between</LI>
<LI>
Sexual Orientation is an innate characteristic. You can never change it. You cannot "acquire" it. You cannot be a "sex addict that turned gay for pleasure". What actually happens, is that you are born with an attraction. Say that this attraction happens to be to both gender (somewhere in the spectrum of attractions). Then at some point in your life, you may decide to actually listen to your own attractions and decide not to be pressured by society anymore to explore your own natural attactions... just like any straight person grows up and eventually decides to explore their attraction to the opposite sex.</LI>

</LIST>If it was possible to "turn gay", then it means it would also be possible to "turn straight". Think of yourself. Do you think your own attraction is soemthing you could change?

This is very critical. The whole thing about "the sex addict who turns gay because he/she does not find enough pleasure with a person from opposite gender" is utter bullshit. :arghh:

I appologize for the strong words, but this view perpetrates the bullying and homophobia we still see in the society about this issue.
No offense intended.

mjgates · Oct 27, 2011

parentastic said:
You can then explain to your children that you cannot "turn gay".
Either you are born gay or you aren't.

There has been no link to genetics and homosexuality. Actually, studies have had more success linking homosexuality to child abuse (although this was a small percent) and those raised by heterosexual as opposed to homosexual parents (big percentage differences in this study). So to teach a child that people are born gay when scientific studies have not been able to show this through brain studies, hormonal influences, twin studies and genetics doesn't seem the way to go. There is no so called "gay gene". I would actually explain this is the lifestyle this couple has chosen for themselves and they have the same rights and freedom as everyone else to live how they choose. And it's not for me or you to judge others for their choices.

parentastic · Oct 27, 2011

mjgates said:
Actually, studies have had more success linking homosexuality to child abuse (although this was a small percent) and those raised by heterosexual as opposed to homosexual parents (big percentage differences in this study).

These studies are only measuring the likelyhood of comming out.
Any serious study ash to take into account the fact the current measures are (obviously) only measuring the people who accepted to answer the surveys. This means that these results are very often flawed.
They allow for instance to know that people who were abused are more likely to come out earlier [if they are already born gay] and are more likely to take the study voluntarly.
Drawing a conclusion as to the sexual orientation's origine based on these studies is meaningless.
These are correlation links, not causality links.

mjgates said:
So to teach a child that people are born gay when scientific studies have not been able to show this through brain studies, hormonal influences, twin studies and genetics doesn't seem the way to go.

As I explained, you should ask the people in the LGBTQ community themselves. This being said, there are many studies that found that it is impossible to "change" orientation.
An absence of proof for a genetic link isn't proof that it doesn't exist.
Finding the biological or neurological cause for this is delicate and complicated work.
Even with all that, there are studies. I'll post some later, I don't have access to them from here.

mjgates said:
There is no so called "gay gene".

And you have the proof of that?

mjgates said:
I would actually explain this is the lifestyle this couple has chosen for themselves and they have the same rights and freedom as everyone else to live how they choose. And it's not for me or you to judge others for their choices.

The very use of "lifestyle" is already a sign of misunderstanding of the issue. Would you call your own orientation, as a straight person, as a "lifestyle" ? If you would not, then why would it be different for them?

Tell me, do you KNOW if your own orientation is biological?
Because if you don't think there is a "gay gene", then it would also mean that there are no "straight gene" right? Do you agree with this?

mjgates · Oct 27, 2011

parentastic said:
These studies are only measuring the likelyhood of comming out.
Any serious study ash to take into account the fact the current measures are (obviously) only measuring the people who accepted to answer the surveys. This means that these results are very often flawed.
They allow for instance to know that people who were abused are more likely to come out earlier [if they are already born gay] and are more likely to take the study voluntarly.
Drawing a conclusion as to the sexual orientation's origine based on these studies is meaningless.
These are correlation links, not causality links.

I would say most studies results are flawed to some degree. My point was not the accuracy, just that those studies showed more positive results.

As I explained, you should ask the people in the LGBTQ community themselves. This being said, there are many studies that found that it is impossible to "change" orientation.
An absence of proof for a genetic link isn't proof that it doesn't exist.
Finding the biological or neurological cause for this is delicate and complicated work.
Even with all that, there are studies. I'll post some later, I don't have access to them from here.

What would asking the LGBTQ community do to prove some kind of genetic connection? I agree it is complicated work. But why would I tell my kids something I do not even know to be true. That was the whole point of this. How to explain this to kids, not whether this genetic link exists. As of right now, there is no proof it does. Kerry Pacer, British comedienne Jackie Clune (12 years in a lesbian relationship), Michael Glatze have all changed their orientation. Goota love Google. lol. A couple of them were part of the homosexual rights movement in some fashion. That kind of shoots impossible in the foot.

And you have the proof of that?

No, just as you can't prove it is linked at birth.

The very use of "lifestyle" is already a sign of misunderstanding of the issue. Would you call your own orientation, as a straight person, as a "lifestyle" ? If you would not, then why would it be different for them?

Lifestyle is a very general term. So yes, I would consider my own orientation a lifestyle. No reason to take a general term out of context.

Tell me, do you KNOW if your own orientation is biological?
Because if you don't think there is a "gay gene", then it would also mean that there are no "straight gene" right? Do you agree with this?

Do I KNOW. No. One could make an argument for a lot of things under the assumption it COULD be true. But I do not believe there is a straight gene. I was not born attracted to males or females. I was not born with any understanding of sexual behavior. As a matter of fact, I didn't want anything to do with girls until about the 7th grade, because they didn't like to play football, ride bikes, get in trouble, or do whatever it was the other boys were doing. I have only really heard this gay orientation argument from the gay community. Again, this is about how to handle explaining this to our kids. And if/when the time comes, I will not use the "born with" explanation under an assumption.

Jeremy+3 · Oct 27, 2011

mjgates

Care to explain why most gay males have 'female' brains (in both appearance and function), yet straight men do not?

If sexual orientation is purely a lifestyle choice, how did you make yourself become attracted to the opposite sex?

mjgates · Oct 27, 2011

Jeremy+3 said:
</s>mjgates 
 
Care to explain why most gay males have 'female' brains (in both appearance and function), yet straight men do not? 
 
If sexual orientation is purely a lifestyle choice, how did you make yourself become attracted to the opposite sex?<e>

</e></QUOTE>

You can also look up other problems with studies such as LeVae, Bailey and Pillard, Hamer. Noone has been able to prove there is a connection between genetics and homosexuality. If they had, it would be wide known and not a subject of debate and research. However, it has been proved that sexual orientation can change. Did they somehow change their genetics? I doubt it. 
<s></s><s></s>Brain Plasticity—A Fact Acknowledged by All Neuroscientists<e></SIZE></e></SIZE><e>[/FONT]</e><e></e> 
 
<s></s>Today, scientists are keenly aware of the fact that the brain is not as “hard-wired” or permanently fixed as once thought—an important factor that LeVay failed to acknowledge. One of the properties of plastic is flexibility—many containers are made out of plastic so that they will not shatter when dropped. In a similar manner, the brain was once considered to be rigid, like Ball[SIZE=-1]®<e></SIZE></e></SIZE> jars used for canning—but we now know the brain is “plastic” and flexible, and able to reorganize itself. Research has shown that the brain is able to remodel its connections and grow larger, according to the specific areas that are most frequently utilized. Given that we know today that the brain exhibits plasticity, one must ask if the act of living a homosexual lifestyle itself might be responsible for the difference LeVay noted? Commenting on brain plasticity, Shepherd noted: [/SIZE]<e>[/FONT]</e>

<s></s>Interestingly, since Shepherd’s textbook was published, additional research has even documented the ability of neurons to be generated within certain areas of the brain. This information must be considered when examining comparative anatomical experiments such as LeVay’s. These cortical rearrangements that occur are not as simple as unplugging a lamp and plugging it into another socket. The changes observed by researchers indicate that if the brain were represented by a home electrical system, then many of the wires within the walls would be pulled out, rewired to different connections in different rooms, new outlets would appear, and some would even carry different voltages. Due to the colossal connectivity that takes place within the brain, any “rewiring” is, by its very nature, going to have an effect on several areas—such as [SIZE=-1]INAH<e></SIZE></e></SIZE>3. Scientists understand these things, yet LeVay’s work is still mentioned as alleged support for the so-called gay gene. [/SIZE]<e>[/FONT]</e></r>

parentastic · Oct 27, 2011

mjgates said:
</s>However, it has been proved that sexual orientation can change. <e>

</e></QUOTE>
 
I am sorry, but this is wrong. 
There are no proof that sexual orientation can change. 
In fact, all of the emprical evidence shows that it cannot change. 
 
Not a single case of couselling has ever truly "changed" sexual orientation. <s></s>Such "therapy" has systematically failed.<e></e> 
 
<s></s>You cannot "cure" homosexuality, just as you cannot "cure" heterosexuality<e></e>. 
 
What has been observed, however, is that because of society pressure, people will conceil their true sexual oritentation and will attempt to live miserably with people they are not attracted to, until they free themselves from the society constrain and decide to embrace what they feel. 
From the outside, this may be perceived as "changing your orientation", but in fact, it is not. It's <s></s>rather <e></e>returning to your true self. 
 
What makes this whole thing even more complicated is that sexual orientation, although set in stone before birth, is a continum and not amn either/or sitaution. I.e., you can be born a bisexual, or a mostly-hetero-but-somewhat attracted to the same gender, or mostly-hemoesexual-but-somwhat attracted to the other gender, etc. 
 
Please consult the APA (<URL url="</s>American Psychologist Association<e></e></URL&gt

on this matter: 

<QUOTE author="APA"><s>

APA said:
</s>
<s></s><SIZE size="3"><s><SIZE size="125"></s>What about therapy intended to change sexual orientation from gay to straight?<e></SIZE></e></SIZE><e></e> 
 
All major national mental health organizations have officially expressed concerns about therapies promoted to modify sexual orientation. To date, there has been no scientifically adequate research to show that therapy aimed at changing sexual orientation (sometimes called reparative or conversion therapy) is safe or effective. Furthermore, it seems likely that the promotion of change therapies reinforces stereotypes and contributes to a negative climate for lesbian, gay, and bisexual persons. This appears to be especially likely for lesbian, gay, and bisexual individuals who grow up in more conservative religious settings. 
 
Helpful responses of a therapist treating an individual who is troubled about her or his same-sex attractions include helping that person actively cope with social prejudices against homosexuality, successfully resolve issues associated with and resulting from internal conflicts, and actively lead a happy and satisfying life. Mental health professional organizations call on their members to respect a person’s (client’s) right to self-determination; be sensitive to the client’s race, culture, ethnicity, age, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, religion, socioeconomic status, language, and disability status when working with that client; and eliminate biases based on these factors.<e>

</e></QUOTE></r>

mom2many · Oct 27, 2011

As you can see I have moved this thread and made it, it's own. The topic has strayed very far off of course, and I felt it would be better to give it a new home.

I do have some comments so I will be back once the children have left for their grandma's.

parentastic · Oct 27, 2011

mjgates said:
I would say most studies results are flawed to some degree. My point was not the accuracy, just that those studies showed more positive results.

These studies shows "more positive results" about something else: coming out. As I said, they measure the likelihood to tell one's sexual orientation in the open. It tells nothing about the why.

mjgates said:
What would asking the LGBTQ community do to prove some kind of genetic connection?

It's not about genetic connection.
What I am saying is that it is determined before birth.
You are the one who seems determine to pull the argument around whether or not it is genetic. To my knowledge indeed, research hasn't found any hereditary connection between sexual orientation and genetics.

From what I have learned in my studies in Family Life Education, so far, research seems to point at something happening during the fetus growth, around the 27th week of gestation, possibly as a result of hormonal influence in the womb.

mjgates said:
Why would I tell my kids something I do not even know to be true.

First, if you truly do not know, then shouldn't you tell your children just that - that you don't know?
Right now, even if you don't admit it, your stance is very strongly aimed at seeing homosexuality as acquired and this has proven to be one of the reasons that perpetrates discrimination and suffering for these people.

Second, if you do not know, then why not ask the LGBTQ community? That is the most fair information you will ever have about is, because nobody can know better than them what they live.

mjgates said:
That was the whole point of this. How to explain this to kids, not whether this genetic link exists.

Push it one notch further.
What is your goal as a parent, under simply "answering a question" ?
Do you want your children to develop acceptance of a different reality than your own? Or to perpetrate stereotypes and discrimination?
Do you want your child to respect diversity or do you seek to mold your child to believe that homosexuality is abnormal?
Do you want your child to feel free to be true to themselves if one day in a few years they realize they are gay, or do you want them to feel awfule and abnormal and terrible and push them to hide it from you and the rest of the world?

What is your end goal? It seems to me much more important to know than to obtain the definite proof of sexual orientation's origin, either way.

mjgates said:
As of right now, there is no proof it does. Kerry Pacer, British comedienne Jackie Clune (12 years in a lesbian relationship), Michael Glatze have all changed their orientation. Goota love Google. lol. A couple of them were part of the homosexual rights movement in some fashion.

I have no problem with anyone believing that sexual orientation is fluid, providing they also agree that their own heterosexuality would then be fluid too. AND providing they don't try to use that argument to force anyone onto a specific orientation.
This being said, there are millions of gays and lesbians on the planet who were forced and pressured to live a sexuality in which they were not happy or were forced to hide themselves. The vast majority (if not all of them) knew their true orientation from way back in their adolescence, sometimes as early as a few years old, and have never been able to change, despite their intense desire to fit in and be accepted by a heinous society. To dismiss these millions of courageous and meaningful experiences on the basis of the four or five people you can "goggle" to find a different experience is plain disrespectful, IMO.
This is where your hidden agenda seems fairly clear to me, despite you saying that "I claim nothing specific, I only say we don't know". Well, these millions of gays and lesbians, they know, for themselves.

It is estimated that there are between 20% and 35% people with a sexual orientation that isn't "straight" on the planet.
That's at least 1.4 billion gays and lesbians. Will you deny all of their experiences?

Polygloth · Oct 27, 2011

What you will do when your little boy (or girl) tells you after school:

"Daddy/Mommy, a boy (or girl, insert same gender here) was touching me today. Why they do that?"

Insert your creative, politically correct answer here.

"But Daddy/Mommy, what should I do?"

What will be your answer?

Father_0f_7 · Oct 27, 2011

The answer will be the same as if someone of the opposite gender had touched them.

If ANYONE touches you inappropriately you tell them to stop and then tell an adult.

It really isn't that complicated.

parentastic · Oct 27, 2011

Polygloth said:
What you will do when your little boy (or girl) tells you after school:

"Daddy/Mommy, a boy (or girl, insert same gender here) was touching me today. Why they do that?"

Insert your creative, politically correct answer here.

"But Daddy/Mommy, what should I do?"

What will be your answer?

Excuse me, are you saying that gay / lesbians are abusers simply because their sexual orientatuon is different????

MomoJA · Oct 28, 2011

parentastic said:
Do you want your children to develop acceptance of a different reality than your own? Or to perpetrate stereotypes and discrimination?
Do you want your child to respect diversity or do you seek to mold your child to believe that homosexuality is abnormal?
Do you want your child to feel free to be true to themselves if one day in a few years they realize they are gay, or do you want them to feel awfule and abnormal and terrible and push them to hide it from you and the rest of the world?

Parentastic, you seem to repeatedly get so caught up in your view of things as the only acceptable view of things that you do not see the forest for the trees. Mjgates has clearly answered these questions. He has clearly said that he DOES NOT want his child to believe that homosexuality is abnormal. That's his whole point.

I personally don't know or care if there is a "gay gene." I don't think it matters. And if the only way it can be normal to be gay is if there is a "gay gene," then that is a very sad state of things. I don't think there has to be a "gay gene" to accept gay people in the same way you would accept straight people.

It is actually possible, parentastic, to see things differently from you and not be a bigot. There are lots of ways of thinking and anyone who is truly "tolerant" should be able to accept that.

mom2many · Oct 28, 2011

Polygloth said:
What you will do when your little boy (or girl) tells you after school:

"Daddy/Mommy, a boy (or girl, insert same gender here) was touching me today. Why they do that?"

Insert your creative, politically correct answer here.

"But Daddy/Mommy, what should I do?"

What will be your answer?

Father_0f_7 said:
The answer will be the same as if someone of the opposite gender had touched them.

If ANYONE touches you inappropriately you tell them to stop and then tell an adult.

It really isn't that complicated.

I agree FO7, I am not sure what someones sexual identity has with inappropriate touching.

mom2many · Oct 28, 2011

I'm only going to chime in briefly because if there is one thing I know for sure....you can not change another persons mind when it comes to homosexuality.

For me it always comes back to one question "Why the hell would anyone choose that lifestyle?" they are one of the few members of society who are still allowed to be treated like second class citizens. Why would anyone go out of their way to be treated like crap?

parentastic · Oct 28, 2011

mom2many said:
For me it always comes back to one question "Why the hell would anyone choose that lifestyle?" they are one of the few members of society who are still allowed to be treated like second class citizens. Why would anyone go out of their way to be treated like crap?

Exactly.

Continuation of &quot;how do you explain gay?&quot;...

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Continuation of "how do you explain gay?"...