Gun control....

[Shortthiing_Jen]

please do not take offence to this I just want to share a link. From day one I told my husband that something didn't feel right to me and still doesn't. I also have the same suspicions about the oil rig in the Gulf. I am no a conspiracy theorist but I honestly can not say I believe our government is not corrupt. I also would LOVE to see stats on how many time a gun has saves a persons live or their property. http://shortlittlerebel.wordpress.com/2012/12/16/urgent-update-on-connecticut-shooting/[/url]

also saw this being shared on FB and has really good points

First off , I cannot say how sorry I am for the little lives lost, the family’s that have been torn apart here at the holidays and I can not even begin to imagine the pain of loosing a child in this manor, or in any other way for that matter. I will be praying for healing for the Mothers, Fathers, Brothers, Sisters of the Loved ones that were gunned down in this tragedy on this somber Friday. It's seems strange to me, all the years prior to now that firearms with even greater capabilities were more readily available than what gun laws already restrict now have been around but prior to the last 20 or so years we have not had such tragic things happen like the one we had seen today on 12-13-12. My question to you is why do you think that is? Why are these tragedy’s seem to be happening more and more nowadays? Guns have been around for hundreds of years and in the past even more available and easily accessible in the previous 30-40 years. Maybe because our parents were strict when we were growing up. You had better say yes sir, yes mam, give an older person your chair when they come in the room, show others respect and in return you will get that respect given back to you. Seems silly to some people but it makes me think , this may not be the fault of the guns or gun laws. First off let me say this, that criminals don’t give a damn about your gun laws. Criminals are not going to just turn in their weapons just because they are illegal all of a sudden. If you think they will, you're nuts. They are law breakers by nature and nothing will change that. So what could it be? I think, People just don’t seem to instill the same values in their children that we did 30-40 years ago. A general lack of respect for others is apparent nowadays and is deemed to be acceptable in today’s society and a lot of people want to hide behind free speech as a excuse to be be rude or inconsiderate of others feelings, and act like it's no big deal or some ole' fashioned people just don't get it. Then the same people are shocked when things of this nature happen. OMG. This is what you get when you try to be your child’s friend and not their parent. This is what you get when you think it's OK to do and say anything you want and no one should be offended and just get over it. We as a society are at the point where nothing seems to be taboo. It's insane to think that if we keep going in this carefree anything goes direction that any of this will get any better. The country is steering away from what it was founded on, Christian Values. Believe me I haven't been the best Christian over the years, but I NEVER strayed from the values and Always tried my best to be good to everyone, respect other people and try to be a productive and good member of society. I have always known the difference between right and wrong. I have NEVER blamed others for things that were my own fault. If you did it you should own it! Our steering away from this thinking in our government, our lives, our entertainment, our beliefs I guess makes it easier to deal with being the imperfect people that we are and make us FEEL better about not being the people we should be. Makes it less shameful for us in our daily lives to carry on when there is no moral con-quince for our actions, it's pathetic. Then we want to point fingers when a tragedy happens. We start screaming for someone to come in and fix this. The problem is This problem can only be fixed at home, it starts with YOU as a parent instilling GOOD values in YOUR children. WAKE UP AMERICA!!! I know in this day of instant gratification that you all are looking for a quick and easy fix for all your problems. It's not easy, and It's not quick. It takes WORK, something that lot of Americans are just not willing to do these days, I get it. Nothing good comes easy. Raising GOOD Children is sure not easy, but it is rewarding. Get off your asses America and be positive role models to your children, they are the future of this Great country. Stop wanting someone to make things better and be that person that makes a difference. One quote I recently was made aware of through a show I watch is so on the money in this situation. It is easier to build strong children than to repair broken men. Frederick Douglass. Lets build strong kids and stop looking for quick fixes in our lives. Nothing that is good is easy. Hug your kids tonight and tell them that you love them. Then tomorrow get to work on making a better future for your kids and grand-kids and their grand-kids, hopefully, if we don't all destroy ourselves.

 

[bssage]

We have seen the link and discussed the conspiracy theory. IMHO just too many people involved for that to be realistic.

I think you look at the past through a purpose driven view. Atrocities have been around for a very long time. As far back as the written word: likely further. Killing kids and targeting schools is not something invented in America and not something new.

While I understand your concern that we are getting away from Christian morals. That also is a drum beat that has been around much longer than recent events.

I think we tend to see the picture we would like to see. I see a forum full of dedicated parents. Who do their best to be good parents. I see a majority of children of all religions or even the lack there of. Being respectful and responsible. The children that you speak of are there of course. And they tend to draw the loins share of attention: press: and fame. After all who wants to here on the local news about a kid that does his chores or get above average grades? Its just not news worthy. And its not news worthy because it is common.

Even though you post is not without merit. You should be careful. Although I am a Christian myself. I am not blind to history. It seems to me the atrocities committed in the name of god (many faiths). Make our own current insignificant. I can't quote verse. But there is one that talks about casting the first stone.

In the end. I think history will show how this particular event has steeled our resolve to be better parents: a better nation: and a better world. Time will tell.

ps please break up you post's a little. Its difficult to read a large solid block of text like that.

 

[Shortthiing_Jen]

The bottom part was quoted off of a Facebook post that I have seen others share. I just copied and pasted it only because I felt there were some good point. I guess I should have went through it and spaced it so it would be easier on the eyes. I mainly agreed with the post because I do feel that not many kids have proper parenting and that it is a small portion of the issue.

 

[PandoraSpocks]

While the gun is the means of gun violence, you can't have gun violence without the mindset to commit it. It takes two things to cause it, a gun and the will to cause mayhem with it.

While a gun ban will cut down on the number of guns available, a determined person can always get one. A ban will simply prevent a law abiding person who chooses to carry from defending himself. That's because the only defense against a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.

A gun ban will also create a new class of criminals; otherwise law abiding and law respecting citizens who refuse to give up their right to defend themselves and their homes.

Banning guns to stop gun violence is a lot like banning penises to stop rape. Except nobody would go in to get theirs removed willingly.

 

[PandoraSpocks]

I want to say this about the Christian Values thing. I have nothing against Christianity and I respect everyone's right to their beliefs and greatly respect those of all religions who follow their beliefs. That being said, Christians do not have a monopoly on morals and ethics. My husband is Christian, I am Pagan, two of our kids are athiests and two are agnostic. We don't kill, we don't steal. Any of us.

My athiest son recently found a wallet on the ground outside of the store with $300 and turned it in. The guy came back for it an hour or two later. It was his whole paycheck in there he said, and he tried to give my son some money for doing that but my son wouldn't take it. He said "Man, it was the only right thing to do, I didn't have a choice. It wasn't my money. I don't need a reward to do whats right." He did this on his own. He's 17 and doesn't really have much of a steady income with the part time jobs he has, and we don't have much money to get him clothes or games or what he wants, so $300 cash free and clear was a temptation. He didn't think twice. He knew right from wrong and did the right thing. That's impressive no matter what religion someone is.

Right and wrong are right and wrong, no matter what God you worship or if you worship one. Morals and ethics are what matter, not what religion they are from.

 

[Shortthiing_Jen]

While the gun is the means of gun violence, you can't have gun violence without the mindset to commit it. It takes two things to cause it, a gun and the will to cause mayhem with it.

While a gun ban will cut down on the number of guns available, a determined person can always get one. A ban will simply prevent a law abiding person who chooses to carry from defending himself. That's because the only defense against a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.

A gun ban will also create a new class of criminals; otherwise law abiding and law respecting citizens who refuse to give up their right to defend themselves and their homes.

Banning guns to stop gun violence is a lot like banning penises to stop rape. Except nobody would go in to get theirs removed willingly.

agree 100% I also feel that when I see a store with a sign up advertising "no guns allowed" they are announcing to the crazy they are safe and also setting their customers up as sitting ducks. I cant find the post but I read somewhere that the movie theater was targeted after the guy drove by other theaters and chose the one that had a "no firearm" sign. The site showed a map of his route and he passed a few other theaters just to get to the one with a no fire arm policy.

 

[Shortthiing_Jen]

I want to say this about the Christian Values thing. I have nothing against Christianity and I respect everyone's right to their beliefs and greatly respect those of all religions who follow their beliefs. That being said, Christians do not have a monopoly on morals and ethics. My husband is Christian, I am Pagan, two of our kids are athiests and two are agnostic. We don't kill, we don't steal. Any of us.

My athiest son recently found a wallet on the ground outside of the store with $300 and turned it in. The guy came back for it an hour or two later. It was his whole paycheck in there he said, and he tried to give my son some money for doing that but my son wouldn't take it. He said "Man, it was the only right thing to do, I didn't have a choice. It wasn't my money. I don't need a reward to do whats right." He did this on his own. He's 17 and doesn't really have much of a steady income with the part time jobs he has, and we don't have much money to get him clothes or games or what he wants, so $300 cash free and clear was a temptation. He didn't think twice. He knew right from wrong and did the right thing. That's impressive no matter what religion someone is.

Right and wrong are right and wrong, no matter what God you worship or if you worship one. Morals and ethics are what matter, not what religion they are from.

I am a christian I am not saying that christianity is the only way.By pasting that post I was in no way saying I believed 100%. I mainly agreed on the fact that kids need dicipline. They need to be taught to have morals and be respectful. I guess I should have made that a little more clear before I pasted it.

 

[bssage]

A gun ban will also create a new class of criminals; otherwise law abiding and law respecting citizens who refuse to give up their right to defend themselves and their homes.

Very good point. And one I know I overlooked.

agree 100% I also feel that when I see a store with a sign up advertising "no guns allowed" they are announcing to the crazy they are safe and also setting their customers up as sitting ducks. I cant

I am Pro gun. But I do tend to argue against myself from time to time. I also find these signs laughable. Actually the cop teaching our class when asked about them said. How will they know if your gun is properly concealed. But the pro gun mind set is that were are constantly in a unsafe place. I don't believe that to be the case. I believe these cases make huge news. And give us a false sense of insecurity. I can but don't carry wherever I go. I just don't see the need for it.

I mainly agreed on the fact that kids need dicipline. They need to be taught to have morals and be respectful. I guess I should have made that a little more clear before I pasted it.

I am not sure discipline is responsible for teaching moral's or respect. I think modeling will do more to that end. Really I think (guess) in more of these situations over-discipline was more common than the lack of discipline. If someone has any link supporting or disproving my theory please share.

I do think a lack of guidance or proper modeling may play some small roll.

Really if we are able on this forum to identify the cause of evil. We need to write a book. I'm sure the world would love to know.

I think it would be said that on both side of the fence. Ridiculous arguments or points are made. And those simply serve to take away from legitimate points.

 

[PandoraSpocks]

Let me say this about the presence of guns and safety. I live in a very small, out of the way, backwoods Alabama town. I moved here from Birmingham ten years ago.

Now, in Alabama, you can carry a gun without a permit if you can legally own one as long as you openly carry. You only need a permit to keep it in your purse or under your jacket or something. You didn't see much of that in Bham, but down here in this town you see it everywhere.

Also, it's a small town, and not on the way to anywhere so you have to come here on purpose. It's not full of extremely moral people, we have our share of domestic violence and meth labs and weed busts and dui's and bounced checks and such but we have no violent crime, no robberies, no breaking in houses, no muggins, nothing like that. Know why? Cause 95% of the population here has a gun and everybody else knows it. And they don't want to get shot.

We have meth heads in this town, who somehow manage to scrape up enough gas money to go rob somebody and get arrested in Tuscaloosa instead of here, because they know that here, they will get shot. Meth heads aren't the smartest or most moral of folks, and if even they are saying "I better not be doing that there...." then we may actually be on to something here.

Ten year old boys get shotguns and rifles for Christmas. They go hunting with their daddies and get their picture in the paper with the deer they killed. The high school parking lot has trucks in it with gunracks with loaded shotguns in them from boys that went hunting that morning before school. You would have to be a t-total idiot to try something at that school. Everybody in this town is armed to the teeth. Thats why we have no crime to speak of. Even the meth heads here aren't violent. I guess they know better.

 

[Shortthiing_Jen]

Let me say this about the presence of guns and safety. I live in a very small, out of the way, backwoods Alabama town. I moved here from Birmingham ten years ago.

Now, in Alabama, you can carry a gun without a permit if you can legally own one as long as you openly carry. You only need a permit to keep it in your purse or under your jacket or something. You didn't see much of that in Bham, but down here in this town you see it everywhere.

Also, it's a small town, and not on the way to anywhere so you have to come here on purpose. It's not full of extremely moral people, we have our share of domestic violence and meth labs and weed busts and dui's and bounced checks and such but we have no violent crime, no robberies, no breaking in houses, no muggins, nothing like that. Know why? Cause 95% of the population here has a gun and everybody else knows it. And they don't want to get shot.

We have meth heads in this town, who somehow manage to scrape up enough gas money to go rob somebody and get arrested in Tuscaloosa instead of here, because they know that here, they will get shot. Meth heads aren't the smartest or most moral of folks, and if even they are saying "I better not be doing that there...." then we may actually be on to something here.

Ten year old boys get shotguns and rifles for Christmas. They go hunting with their daddies and get their picture in the paper with the deer they killed. The high school parking lot has trucks in it with gunracks with loaded shotguns in them from boys that went hunting that morning before school. You would have to be a t-total idiot to try something at that school. Everybody in this town is armed to the teeth. Thats why we have no crime to speak of. Even the meth heads here aren't violent. I guess they know better.

wow I would swear you were in my are Obrien,FL where we have a feed store a gas station a post office and 1 caution light. in fact I was just out in my yard with my 12 gauge shotgun. Someone came up in my yard and I am by myself at the moment. My driveway is forever long and is more like a little trail through the woods. Turns out it was my brother trying to get something out of my shed. Our town is mostly all pro gun and are planning on fighting for open carry which I doubt we are big enough to pull off. Kentucky is open carry and it always made sense to me. I think more criminals are detoured if they see the potential to be harmed.

 

[PandoraSpocks]

I'm in Alabama, and although I love shooting guns, I'm ok with not having one when I'm in a safe area. That's good because my husband is a Yankee from DC and terrified of guns and also never got in a fight in his life. But he's a construction worker. He can manage to BS it enough around the rednecks to be ok though. He's been down here over 25 years and is still afriad of guns. Cause he got robbed once in a gas station he worked at as a teenager in DC. PLEASE. I've been shot at twice when I live in Bham and was a teenager, and one of those times was by a relative! I'm not afraid of guns! I'm afraid of the idiots who get their hands on them! It's the combination!

Look at it this way.

Sudafed works great to clear your sinuses.
Nail polish remover works great to take of polish or stains on formica
Red Devil Lye works great to clean the drains
Propane works great for heat
Matches work great to light cigarettes or camp fires
Muratic acid works great to clean bricks or tile or porclean tubs

Combine them and other ingredients in certain ways and you get crystal meth

Guns work great to kill dinner for the next few weeks
Guns work great to shoot targets for fun
Guns work great to save you from the meth head who kicks in your door to kill you for your money

Insanity works great for movie producers, politicians and musicians

Comine them and you get somebody who will shoot you for no reason.

 

[cybele]

Okay, what is with all the meth references?

 

[PandoraSpocks]

It's called an analogy. Meth is the biggest drug problem in our country at the moment and is made of a combination of normal ordinary everyday things. It was an attempt to show how you can use something ordinary and useful to do something very bad. The same way guns are ordinary and useful but can be used to do something very bad.

What would you have rather me use?

 

[cybele]

Just interested because you have brought it up twice already.

 

[singledad]

I will start off by saying that I don't like guns. I don't own one, and I wouldn't want to own one even if I could. The reality is that if you become a target for an armed robbery, a handgun in a safe wouldn't mean anything. If it's not loaded and cocked and in your hand, it's worthless. And not only worthless, it's likely to be stolen, have the serial number shaved off, and contribute to the number of illegal firearms in criminal hands.

If I have to go into dangerous areas, I carry a knife. 1. I know how to use one. 2. I can use it in a crowd without endangering bystanders. 3. It's easier to control when you are in the middle of a fight. 4. If I'm attacked by multiple, armed assailants, a single hand-gun won't save me anyway - it is more likely to end up being used on me instead. btw - like all white, male, South Africans of my generation, I was conscripted into the army at 18, and trained to handle various firearms of different calibers. It's not that I don't know how to handle a firearm.

My second question is this - how many of you who own firearms, will be able to look another human being in the eyes, point a gun at his head, and pull the trigger to kill him? How many will be able to live with the thought that you killed a person? Self-defense - sure. We all like to think that we can do it, but I really don't think it's that simple. A criminal, when shot, bleeds just like any other human being, and you will live with that image for the rest of your life. Know that unless you are a good enough shot to disable the assailants hands, the only thing that will be guaranteed to stop him is death. ie - If you're going to point a gun at someone, you had better be prepared to kill him, or you run the risk of him taking the weapon from you and using it on you instead. Sure, there is a possibility of a criminal running away at the sight of a gun, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Now that I've explained my position on guns, here are my thoughts on gun control:

<LIST>

• 
  <LI>
• I don't see that anyone needs more than one gun for self-defense. It's not like one person can shoot multiple guns at the same time. Unless you're and action-movie hero .</LI>
  <LI>
• I get that people like to collect guns. Some of them are really beautiful. I think that if you want to be a collector and own multiple guns, you need to submit to an even more in depth test than someone who wants a single weapon for self-defense - something that includes regular psych evaluations for anyone who lives in, or regularly visits your home (eg. an employee), etc. Holding you responsible for crimes committed by others using your firearms would also go a long way towards ensuring that they are responsibly stored. (eg. The Connecticut shooter's mother should not have been allowed to own multiple guns while her mentally ill son lived with her).</LI>
  <LI>
• I know people like to hunt (I don't understand how shooting an unsuspecting and defenseless animal is sport, but lets leave that for another debate). I think extra checks and balances for the type of heavy-caliber arms required for hunting would also be a good idea.</LI>
  <LI>
• I don't see how any private citizen has any business owning an automatic assault rifle. To do what with?</LI>
  <LI>
• Here, if your firearm is stolen and you cannot prove that you did everything required by law to prevent it, you are charged with a crime (I'm not sure what it is). ie, if you keep it in the kitchen drawer instead of a locked safe that is bolted to the wall and satisfies the legal criteria for a gun safe, and it get's stolen, you are in deep trouble. That is to prevent legal guns from becoming illegal guns. I like this law.</LI>
  <LI>
• We all know and agree that criminals have illegal guns, and that gun-control won't convince them to give up their weapons. But one aspect of this argument that is conveniently forgotten, is this - where do these illegal weapons come from? I know it's a long term solution and one would need a short-term, interim solution first, but if no more guns were sold and illegal weapons kept getting confiscated, the weapons supply will eventually dry up. Illegal weapons don't fall from the sky. Even if they were smuggled in from another country, they were legal once, somewhere in the world.</LI>

</LIST>

 

[akmom]

We have too many problems with wildlife and loose dogs to live without guns. When I was a kid, my parents shot three dogs on separate occasions, all on our property or between our home and bus stop, following an attack. We have also had bears and coyotes, which have taken small dogs and livestock. I don't usually carry a gun when I'm about, because it's awkward. A few years ago I took my kids and some of their friends sledding and we had a stray dog attack; I held it at bay with a sled while a neighbor came by and shot it. This was a nuisance dog that I had reported before, as had other neighbors, but whatever the troopers did about it (if anything) was obviously not enough, because there it was again. Not that I'd want to hold a vicious dog at bay for 30 minutes waiting for a trooper any way. And once you get outside residential areas, it's really unwise to go without a gun (or at least pepper spray). There are loose dogs that pack up and become aggressive. There are also sporadic cases of rabies among wolves. You just never know what you might encounter.

I can see the merits of requiring some type of gun safety course for first-time gun owners. And felons obviously shouldn't have them, especially ones with a history of violence. But I don't think gun owners should be subject to random inspections or disclosure of medical records. The right to privacy, the right against search and seizure, and the right to self-defense are all important; you shouldn't have to give up one for another.

Like Parentastic said, it is complex. I can think of a series of solutions that might (mostly) eliminate my need for firearms, but I imagine those things would be harder to enforce than gun laws. (They might include mandatory behavior classes for all dogs, enforced leash laws, police presence guaranteeing a response within 5 minutes of any residential area, intense wildlife management programs and GPS monitoring of all individuals ever convicted of a violent crime.) Then again, I don't think you can cover all the bases, no matter how much you brainstorm.

 

[singledad]

But I don't think gun owners should be subject to random inspections or disclosure of medical records. The right to privacy, the right against search and seizure, and the right to self-defense are all important; you shouldn't have to give up one for another.

The right to privacy is a nice thought.

Until your schizophrenic neighbor who has voices in his head that tell him to shoot random people buys a gun... sorry, I believe that part of proving that you are capable of being a responsible gun owner is to show that you have no history of mental illness, or if you had, that you have been/are in treatment and have been stable for a significant amount of time. Not because mental illness makes you a bad person, but because mental illness can impair your ability to act responsibly. No, it's not fair. Having any form of mental illness in the first place is not fair. But you cannot allow the rights of one person to become more important than the safety of those around him.

No, you can never cover all bases. But removing guns from the hands on unstable people is one base you CAN cover.

 

[bssage]

FYI

Federal Categories of Persons Prohibited From Receiving

A delay response from the NICS Section indicates the subject of the background check has been matched with either a state or federal potentially prohibiting record containing a similar name and/or similar descriptive features (name, sex, race, date of birth, state of residence, social security number, height, weight, or place of birth). The federally prohibiting criteria are as follows:

A person who has been convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year or any state offense classified by the state as a misdemeanor and is punishable by a term of imprisonment of more than two years.
Persons who are fugitives of justice—for example, the subject of an active felony or misdemeanor warrant.
An unlawful user and/or an addict of any controlled substance; for example, a person convicted for the use or possession of a controlled substance within the past year; or a person with multiple arrests for the use or possession of a controlled substance within the past five years with the most recent arrest occurring within the past year; or a person found through a drug test to use a controlled substance unlawfully, provided the test was administered within the past year.
A person adjudicated mental defective or involuntarily committed to a mental institution or incompetent to handle own affairs, including dispositions to criminal charges of found not guilty by reason of insanity or found incompetent to stand trial.
A person who, being an alien, is illegally or unlawfully in the United States.
A person who, being an alien except as provided in subsection (2), has been admitted to the United States under a non-immigrant visa.
A person dishonorably discharged from the United States Armed Forces.
A person who has renounced his/her United States citizenship.
The subject of a protective order issued after a hearing in which the respondent had notice that restrains them from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such partner. This does not include ex parte orders.
A person convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime which includes the use or attempted use of physical force or threatened use of a deadly weapon and the defendant was the spouse, former spouse, parent, guardian of the victim, by a person with whom the victim shares a child in common, by a person who is cohabiting with or has cohabited in the past with the victim as a spouse, parent, guardian or similar situation to a spouse, parent or guardian of the victim.
A person who is under indictment or information for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year.

That information was taken from this FBI site. http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/general-information/fact-sheet[/url]

simular information just the ATF site.

 

[akmom]

No, you can never cover all bases. But removing guns from the hands on unstable people is one base you CAN cover.

Only if they have sought treatment. One might argue that the threat of losing their guns could deter a person from seeking help, to keep themselves off the gun control radar. And there is always the possibility of acquiring guns illegally. That doesn't seem to be extremely difficult. The last two major shootings here in the U.S. involve a person who was not being treated for mental illness (Newton shooter) and a convicted murderer who acquired it anyway (firefighter ambush). Where there's a will, there's a way!

 

[singledad]

Where there's a will, there's a way!

Yes, but possibility of failure is never a good reason not to try.

You'll catch some. Not all, but some. And you'll save some lives. Every bit counts.