"Giving her time, she'll be fine" isn't really solving the issue. Sitting back and doing nothing doesn't help.robin480az said:
I wish I could get through to her......
- Thread starter Dadu2004
- Start date
Dadu2004 --
Sending you my good wishes. I certainly understand where you're coming from: I have worked with a lot of kids like your daughter. Even if she does not have the diagnosis below, a lot of the advice in this free report will be helpful for you, so I will post it here for you.
It sounds like your daughter is highly intelligent and capable, but totally distracted in a classroom. Often, these kids are distracted by sound, as I explain below.
I have been working with kids with ADD and ADHD for 14
years.
I have put together a free report on parenting the ADD or
ADHD child.
You can get a copy on the web at focalpointwenatchee dot com. Look for the page called free help for ADD.
There is also a link to get personal questions answered.
Stay strong: you are your child's first and biggest fan. I hope this is helpful for you!
FocalPoint
Sending you my good wishes. I certainly understand where you're coming from: I have worked with a lot of kids like your daughter. Even if she does not have the diagnosis below, a lot of the advice in this free report will be helpful for you, so I will post it here for you.
It sounds like your daughter is highly intelligent and capable, but totally distracted in a classroom. Often, these kids are distracted by sound, as I explain below.
I have been working with kids with ADD and ADHD for 14
years.
I have put together a free report on parenting the ADD or
ADHD child.
You can get a copy on the web at focalpointwenatchee dot com. Look for the page called free help for ADD.
There is also a link to get personal questions answered.
Stay strong: you are your child's first and biggest fan. I hope this is helpful for you!
FocalPoint
What punishments does she get for being purposely lazy? (at home and at school)
Do you think she is thriving on the attention of sitting next to her teacher? (her teacher shouldn't do that, it portrays favouritism to the rest of the students and to Delaney, its one of the worst things you can do as a teacher)
Have the school tried a teaching assistant (someone who always sits with her to ensure she does her work, instead of other children possibly losing out on help).
If she sees school as purely a social adventure how does she feel about leaving all her friends behind if she is held back a year? (holding back just makes them bored, not exactly going to help is it, but it is a good warning to book your ideas up).
Is her lazyness focused within certain subject types or across the board?
It sounds like with both her friends and her teacher she is being manipulative by being both lazy and almost making herself appear incapable of work, especially as her peers are also treating her as a baby (teacher should not allow that). I think she knows what she wants and she is easily getting it, lots of children do it and they need to be knocked off their perch, otherwise they get worse and cannot cope without constant attention at school.
Is she part of any clubs at school? If she were my daughter she would only be allowed to attend them under strict conditions, one being respectful at school (with Amelia that was not telling people they smell like poo) and putting in adequate effort with their school work. If ours were unable to do this at school then home pleasures were also removed as well, they need to know that they are not in charge and that consequences aren't very nice and they are very very boring.
Do you think she is thriving on the attention of sitting next to her teacher? (her teacher shouldn't do that, it portrays favouritism to the rest of the students and to Delaney, its one of the worst things you can do as a teacher)
Have the school tried a teaching assistant (someone who always sits with her to ensure she does her work, instead of other children possibly losing out on help).
If she sees school as purely a social adventure how does she feel about leaving all her friends behind if she is held back a year? (holding back just makes them bored, not exactly going to help is it, but it is a good warning to book your ideas up).
Is her lazyness focused within certain subject types or across the board?
It sounds like with both her friends and her teacher she is being manipulative by being both lazy and almost making herself appear incapable of work, especially as her peers are also treating her as a baby (teacher should not allow that). I think she knows what she wants and she is easily getting it, lots of children do it and they need to be knocked off their perch, otherwise they get worse and cannot cope without constant attention at school.
Is she part of any clubs at school? If she were my daughter she would only be allowed to attend them under strict conditions, one being respectful at school (with Amelia that was not telling people they smell like poo) and putting in adequate effort with their school work. If ours were unable to do this at school then home pleasures were also removed as well, they need to know that they are not in charge and that consequences aren't very nice and they are very very boring.
I just want to put this in a little perspective. We have something here in the US called a 504. The history and politics behind it are long and complicated, and I can't say that I know or care about all that, so I can't really present it here. However, what it means to students and teachers is that we have to make certain accomodations for students with a 504. They may have this because they have dyslexia, adhd, behavior disorders, physical disabilities, etc. The accomodations we have to make are set by the special ed department along with the parent and sometimes the reg. ed teacher. OFTEN one of the accomodations we have to make is to seat the child in proximity of the teacher. I do not think Delaney has a 504, but on the road to getting a 504, the teacher has to show certain interventions have been tried. This is one of them. If a teacher does not do these things, he/she can lose his job, and, apparantly very soon, possibly keep the job but lose any raise in salary.Jeremy+3 said:
I think this probably shows the same sort of preference that preferential seating does. However, I would have loved to have some assistance in my public school classrooms, but the money was not there. When I did have a certain number of 504 or IEP students, if the schedule permitted, I might get an assistant for part of the class, but they were warned to not sit next to any one child because this would alert the rest of the class that he/she had a 504 or an IEP (as if the students didn't already know that) and that might embarrass the child.Jeremy+3 said:
So is a little girl lazy, or maybe the schoolwork is simply... boring?
yeah, punishment is what she needs to make her INTERESTED.
all children naturally love to learn, just we adults sucessfully kill it.
this question is way too serious for a 6yo to fully comprehend the long-term consequences. It is not losing out on friendships (there will be new kids and new friends anyway), but it means an extra year of school, a whole year taken out of her meaningful life. All the progress she made this year would be crossed out. :angry: really, can't imagine a worse case scenario.
going back to my previous post... i don't know what options are available where Dadu lives. I'd look into things like Montessori or Waldorf schools (not advertising, just for example), where they take a very different approach to learning process in general.
If she brings home work that is unacceptable, she will re-do it.Jeremy+3 said:
No, actually she hates it because she is removed from her friends, which is where she thrives.Jeremy+3 said:
She definitely hates this idea, but I don't think she really thinks that it will happen or could happen. Maybe this is a major wakeup call.Jeremy+3 said:
It's all across the board, even in non-academic subjects like art.Jeremy+3 said:
That PERFECTLY describes my child. She is incredibly manipulative. You'[re right, she may just need to be knocked off of her perch. Though, it's incredibly tough to sit back and watch. We inherently want to protect our children...so watching this happen is devastating.Jeremy+3 said:
Not currently, though she used to be involved in ice skating.Jeremy+3 said:
Delaney isn't currently on an IEP, though it was discussed with her teacher. The teacher didn't (at the time) feel that an IEP was appropriate. She has no learning disability per say, but more of an attitude/focusing issue. I'm not sure how the teacher will feel now...maybe she's changed her mind. We'll follow up on that issue.MomoJA said:
Your top question is a good one...I'm really not sure that we've identified that. I've thought about getting her IQ tested...maybe there's a possibility that she's actually gifted, and is just really bored. It happened to my brother in middle school.TabascoNatalie said:So is a little girl lazy, or maybe the schoolwork is simply... boring?
yeah, punishment is what she needs to make her INTERESTED.
all children naturally love to learn, just we adults sucessfully kill it.
this question is way too serious for a 6yo to fully comprehend the long-term consequences. It is not losing out on friendships (there will be new kids and new friends anyway), but it means an extra year of school, a whole year taken out of her meaningful life. All the progress she made this year would be crossed out. :angry: really, can't imagine a worse case scenario.
going back to my previous post... i don't know what options are available where Dadu lives. I'd look into things like Montessori or Waldorf schools (not advertising, just for example), where they take a very different approach to learning process in general.
We do have Montessori schools/Charter schools/Parochial schools here that I may look into.
I agree it isn't very nice watching it happen, we are currently watching it with Jake but sometimes we do have to be cruel to be kind.
She wont like being knocked off her perch or being shown who is boss, so you have to expect her to do her very best at sulking but it is worth it.
I don't know about Delaney but normally children who use manipulation absolutely hate being ignored and often thrive on negative attention as they realise it is the easiest way to get undivided attention, Jake is like that as well.
When he doesn't do his class work, we sit him in the office and say to him "do your work, thank you", then we leave him there after a minute or two of sulking he does it. If we sit with him he doesn't. Also if you give a direct order and then say thank you it is a lot harder for them to avoid the task, the order tells them exactly what to do and the thank you gives the knowledge that the order will be happening. If you say "please can you do your work" they are being given a choice twice.
You can go and sit in her lessons, but to do that you must ignore her, preferably be in a position so where she is sat she has her back to you. If you can see exactly how she is interacting and how it compares to her behaviour at home it is easier for you and the teacher to help her.
She wont like being knocked off her perch or being shown who is boss, so you have to expect her to do her very best at sulking but it is worth it.
I don't know about Delaney but normally children who use manipulation absolutely hate being ignored and often thrive on negative attention as they realise it is the easiest way to get undivided attention, Jake is like that as well.
When he doesn't do his class work, we sit him in the office and say to him "do your work, thank you", then we leave him there after a minute or two of sulking he does it. If we sit with him he doesn't. Also if you give a direct order and then say thank you it is a lot harder for them to avoid the task, the order tells them exactly what to do and the thank you gives the knowledge that the order will be happening. If you say "please can you do your work" they are being given a choice twice.
You can go and sit in her lessons, but to do that you must ignore her, preferably be in a position so where she is sat she has her back to you. If you can see exactly how she is interacting and how it compares to her behaviour at home it is easier for you and the teacher to help her.
Ok well here is my spin. First I think I know you well enough, to know you likely have exhausted reward/restriction based motivation. And even though she is you little princess (I relate) you have set that aside for the greater good.
I want to make sure we are on the same page. If memory serves me kindergarten includes several milestones that they are expected to achieve in order to be premoted to first grade. These are mainly comprised of fine motor skills I.E cutting shapes, coloring within lines ect, basic memorization of the fundamentals, colors, alphabet, numbers ect. And lots of social "play learning" that will be required for learning and functioning in a group. So the work we are talking about is somehow comprised of the above. A little math for sure some reading. But not much beyond that.
Many/most of the classrooms both my kids have been in allow parents to audit the class if they like. In one of Chloe's classes they actually video each session. This may help you narrow down the actual point of derailment. I speak to this because you indicated your not having the issues at home. Or at least not enough to warrant concern. If you do audit. I would break out the components of her day to help identify the real issue. It may just that one item is giving her trouble and that destroys her focus for everything beyound that.
Pay attention to how she is distracted. Most everything we humans do is a process. From picking our noses to washing the dishes. Observe her process when she becomes distracted or unfocused. The safe money is that its a process you will be able to identify in short order. The reason this is significant. Once the process is identified it sometimes is a fairly simple step, that can detour it back to the task at hand. This is done by removing a piece of of her process. May take several tries to find the right piece, so patience is a virtue This is especially big with my daughter. The key to this is you or the observer has to spend some time just observing and providing no input. best if its done for an extended amount of time
I would note the subtle differences between where she is OK and where she is not. At home does she work on a hard chair in the kitchen or the couch. Does she work with background noise (TV, Radio) or is the environment quite. sometimes something she is familuar with from the area she is able to focus can change her frame of mine. One thing that I think I have had a lot of success with Cole is staying in constant contact with his teacher. I explain what I am doing to the teacher. I will send her a email note saying he got a new rock for his collection. Or she will send me a note he got a purple star on his behavior chart. Then we mention whatever it was to Cole. I like to think it keeps the two worlds from being separate places. That he mentally links school and home. Kinda like "mom and dad are not that far away"
I dont know any details about the teacher but they should be given some attention. Without trying to overgeneralize. Some of the new teachers may have access to newer methods while some of the older ones may have already had some success overcoming these issues. I SAID SOME< NOT ALL. Just something to keep in mind. Maybe invite a sub or have her attend a different class even if only to rule that out as a factor.
Their are some things which can be purchased of she is just restless and frigidity. A silicone filled over-sized seat cushion for squirmy (ants in their pants) also a couple of lazy susan type of things. A vibrating stick for them to chew on. Kinda like a powered tooth brush without the brush. And it comes in different flavors. There is a ton of stuff like that out there. I would be happy to share some links if you want.
If she had to be "held back" I would rather do it in kindergarten than a higher grade. And don't let it drag you down brother. I got my share of stuff that can drag me down. But thats no good for anyone.
As with any of my posts this is just stuff that I have had some success with. I dont pretend to have "the key to the mint"
I want to make sure we are on the same page. If memory serves me kindergarten includes several milestones that they are expected to achieve in order to be premoted to first grade. These are mainly comprised of fine motor skills I.E cutting shapes, coloring within lines ect, basic memorization of the fundamentals, colors, alphabet, numbers ect. And lots of social "play learning" that will be required for learning and functioning in a group. So the work we are talking about is somehow comprised of the above. A little math for sure some reading. But not much beyond that.
Many/most of the classrooms both my kids have been in allow parents to audit the class if they like. In one of Chloe's classes they actually video each session. This may help you narrow down the actual point of derailment. I speak to this because you indicated your not having the issues at home. Or at least not enough to warrant concern. If you do audit. I would break out the components of her day to help identify the real issue. It may just that one item is giving her trouble and that destroys her focus for everything beyound that.
Pay attention to how she is distracted. Most everything we humans do is a process. From picking our noses to washing the dishes. Observe her process when she becomes distracted or unfocused. The safe money is that its a process you will be able to identify in short order. The reason this is significant. Once the process is identified it sometimes is a fairly simple step, that can detour it back to the task at hand. This is done by removing a piece of of her process. May take several tries to find the right piece, so patience is a virtue This is especially big with my daughter. The key to this is you or the observer has to spend some time just observing and providing no input. best if its done for an extended amount of time
I would note the subtle differences between where she is OK and where she is not. At home does she work on a hard chair in the kitchen or the couch. Does she work with background noise (TV, Radio) or is the environment quite. sometimes something she is familuar with from the area she is able to focus can change her frame of mine. One thing that I think I have had a lot of success with Cole is staying in constant contact with his teacher. I explain what I am doing to the teacher. I will send her a email note saying he got a new rock for his collection. Or she will send me a note he got a purple star on his behavior chart. Then we mention whatever it was to Cole. I like to think it keeps the two worlds from being separate places. That he mentally links school and home. Kinda like "mom and dad are not that far away"
I dont know any details about the teacher but they should be given some attention. Without trying to overgeneralize. Some of the new teachers may have access to newer methods while some of the older ones may have already had some success overcoming these issues. I SAID SOME< NOT ALL. Just something to keep in mind. Maybe invite a sub or have her attend a different class even if only to rule that out as a factor.
Their are some things which can be purchased of she is just restless and frigidity. A silicone filled over-sized seat cushion for squirmy (ants in their pants) also a couple of lazy susan type of things. A vibrating stick for them to chew on. Kinda like a powered tooth brush without the brush. And it comes in different flavors. There is a ton of stuff like that out there. I would be happy to share some links if you want.
If she had to be "held back" I would rather do it in kindergarten than a higher grade. And don't let it drag you down brother. I got my share of stuff that can drag me down. But thats no good for anyone.
As with any of my posts this is just stuff that I have had some success with. I dont pretend to have "the key to the mint"
bssage said:
I forgot about the seat cushion. Cole had pretty good success with that when he was younger! I wouldn't mind a link to the vibrating thing for cole...he eats all of our pencils!
There is also a single leg seat that looks to be effective with focus. Like one of those pedestal seats hunters sometimes use. Used both for kids who like to lean their chairs and for focus. Lots of stuff and I have done did a crapload of research around Christmas time.
Thanks brother...alot of good information there. I'm not sure about the auditing the class thing. Definitely worth having a conversation with her teach about that. Videoing would be a good option too, so long as she didn't know that it was about her...otherwise her behavior would surely be different.bssage said:
Thanks again - filing this good stuff into the brain....
One other thing that's very useful Pie timer.
They are super simple, extremely effective. Chloe's class uses them daily several times throughout the day. It really focuses them on the task at hand when used correctly.
You can make them yourself one or any teaching supply place has them cheap. Under a buck. A very small amount of training (like a couple of minutes) to use them correctly.
Very effective, very K.I.S.S.
They are super simple, extremely effective. Chloe's class uses them daily several times throughout the day. It really focuses them on the task at hand when used correctly.
You can make them yourself one or any teaching supply place has them cheap. Under a buck. A very small amount of training (like a couple of minutes) to use them correctly.
Very effective, very K.I.S.S.
Sorry Dadu, I had to jump ahead after reading the first couple of pages.
So pardon me if any of this repeats others' thoughts and suggestions.
First - on "Caring" It seems to be a theme you kept coming back to, she doesn't perform because she doesn't care. So, have you asked her what she does care about? Is there a way to fit that into her class life? Maybe she doesn't care about money so the match sections about adding money don't connect with her, if she likes turles could she add turtles instead? see what I mean, seems like this child needs a creative approach and I don't have the answer for HOW to do that, just that it might be worth a try if you can find someone willing to take that approach with some experience doing so.
As for Christian school - just a couple of thoughts - first if it's something you are interested in do not write it off solely because of financial concerns. Many, if not all, have financial aid available, I'm on a foundation for one, and it's not only a factor it's part of our schools mission to reach out and care for those who want that eucational experience but cannot afford it. For us, even with full tuition it's not that expensive, but that varies a lot from place to place and school to school. So, if you're interested, persue the interest and ask questions, express your concerns about money, be frank about your situation, and you might find help. Now, the second thing is that some private schools don't have the resources to handle kids who need special attention very well. It's simply a resource issue. So, if you think the nurturing environment will make a difference, then it may be worth looking into, but you may not have access to as many resources. I hate to generalize.
It seems like a course of action would be to meet with some of the schools you are interested in and see what their ideas are for your situation. Maybe one of them would have an interesting approach, and it would be easier to repeat a grade in a new school than the same one.
So pardon me if any of this repeats others' thoughts and suggestions.
First - on "Caring" It seems to be a theme you kept coming back to, she doesn't perform because she doesn't care. So, have you asked her what she does care about? Is there a way to fit that into her class life? Maybe she doesn't care about money so the match sections about adding money don't connect with her, if she likes turles could she add turtles instead? see what I mean, seems like this child needs a creative approach and I don't have the answer for HOW to do that, just that it might be worth a try if you can find someone willing to take that approach with some experience doing so.
As for Christian school - just a couple of thoughts - first if it's something you are interested in do not write it off solely because of financial concerns. Many, if not all, have financial aid available, I'm on a foundation for one, and it's not only a factor it's part of our schools mission to reach out and care for those who want that eucational experience but cannot afford it. For us, even with full tuition it's not that expensive, but that varies a lot from place to place and school to school. So, if you're interested, persue the interest and ask questions, express your concerns about money, be frank about your situation, and you might find help. Now, the second thing is that some private schools don't have the resources to handle kids who need special attention very well. It's simply a resource issue. So, if you think the nurturing environment will make a difference, then it may be worth looking into, but you may not have access to as many resources. I hate to generalize.
It seems like a course of action would be to meet with some of the schools you are interested in and see what their ideas are for your situation. Maybe one of them would have an interesting approach, and it would be easier to repeat a grade in a new school than the same one.
Thanks Ray, good thoughts there. I know there's financial resources for a Christian school...and that may be a course that we take.
I had the same issue with my elder son and so I went into his class everyday at first. Sat with him explained the expectations I had the expectations of the school and the class room, I did work with him, mostly reading at times I sat next to him but helped another child instead and listened to him, later I dropped back to one day a week, this year he is already thriving, we had discussed holding back a little but what I have learnt is that regardless of the age holding back simply creates more issues especially later down the track.
She cant foresee that her being held back and the consequences of that choice now. After a while I learnt that my son thought if this is the bar than I will only met that level. Besides the teacher and your child just may need a break from each other. This year I still plan on going to my children's classes it's a huge commitment and I struggle at times wondering why I am the only parent... (it seems that why) but I get alot more information about my child and the teacher and the class room this way.
If it continued for me I would simply pull them out of school and homeschool for 1/2 the year to a year and put them back in the following year.
I know this has worked for several families I know
Regards
Sharne
She cant foresee that her being held back and the consequences of that choice now. After a while I learnt that my son thought if this is the bar than I will only met that level. Besides the teacher and your child just may need a break from each other. This year I still plan on going to my children's classes it's a huge commitment and I struggle at times wondering why I am the only parent... (it seems that why) but I get alot more information about my child and the teacher and the class room this way.
If it continued for me I would simply pull them out of school and homeschool for 1/2 the year to a year and put them back in the following year.
I know this has worked for several families I know
Regards
Sharne
Hey Dadu2004 sorry to hear about what you're going through. The only suggestion I can make is for you to try to see a psychotherapist to get to the root of the problem. I'm not sure how you'll take the suggestion but it may help
Good luck with everything and don't give up.
Good luck with everything and don't give up.
Sunny repeated grade 2. It was the best thing for her, just that extra year to get on track, she needed it and I really believe that if it is going to benefit the child it isnt the bad thing that its always made out to be. When we were told by her teacher that she would need to repeat everyone kicked up such a fuss "Oh the poor thing shes going to be picked on" "she wont have any friends" "its an extra year of her little life"
Well, an extra year early on to catch up is worth it if it means that she's not struggling for the rest of her education. I truly believe that if we refused and sent her onto grade 3 then she would be in a worse place now (even seeing her now, if we let her go on she would be in high school this year, she isnt ready for that yet, next year, yeah, I think she will be) I also hope that this has helped cement her education later on in life.
We found that a different teacher, another chance to re-learn everything, was so beneficial to her. I do believe it is the last resort, but its the last resort for a reason, and if its what the child needs then so be it. It isnt a bad thing.
Well, an extra year early on to catch up is worth it if it means that she's not struggling for the rest of her education. I truly believe that if we refused and sent her onto grade 3 then she would be in a worse place now (even seeing her now, if we let her go on she would be in high school this year, she isnt ready for that yet, next year, yeah, I think she will be) I also hope that this has helped cement her education later on in life.
We found that a different teacher, another chance to re-learn everything, was so beneficial to her. I do believe it is the last resort, but its the last resort for a reason, and if its what the child needs then so be it. It isnt a bad thing.