sexual freedom...

ivybendorf · Mar 28, 2008

meow_173 said:
But thats the thing. I don't need organized religion to teach me how to live my life. I know right from wrong, i know not to cheat, steal or lie. ANd i take responsibilities for my actions. So really, religion and going ot church is a place where people can concgregate and share in their faith, but to me i don't need to.

What I think she is defining is the difference between being religious (ie church, sunday school) and being spiritual (ie believing in a higher power and basic goodness or whathaveyou).

FooserX · Mar 28, 2008

meow_173 said:
But thats the thing. I don't need organized religion to teach me how to live my life. I know right from wrong, i know not to cheat, steal or lie. ANd i take responsibilities for my actions. So really, religion and going ot church is a place where people can concgregate and share in their faith, but to me i don't need to.

Well just to be difficult, you could say that anyone's morals or beliefs need to be respected. Like Yulia...she's got some pretty "out there" beliefs, but who are you to ever disagree with them if you're doing the same thing she is?

I get your point. I was just asking because you seemed to not understand how some women take on the submissive role...they do so because it's a religious thing. If you're not religious, then you obviously aren't going to understand their point of view, so why debate it?

Amber · Mar 28, 2008

meow_173 said:
THe comics? I just think they are funny, and you can't take these kid of things to heart.

The only reason I took that one to heart (and I think this might apply towards others as well) is that it involved Jesus. Just because I know he is the Lord, I serve Him, and I believe all that he did for me. So, to see someone post something like that, it's almost kind of blasphemy to me. I know that's not what blasphemy is, just using it as an example.

meow_173 · Mar 28, 2008

FooserX said:
Well just to be difficult, you could say that anyone's morals or beliefs need to be respected. Like Yulia...she's got some pretty "out there" beliefs, but who are you to ever disagree with them if you're doing the same thing she is?

I get your point. I was just asking because you seemed to not understand how some women take on the submissive role...they do so because it's a religious thing. If you're not religious, then you obviously aren't going to understand their point of view, so why debate it?

I get what your saying. But i wasn't really debating the submissive thing, just putting my 2cents in.

Ari2 · Mar 28, 2008

Teresa said:
Funny, I've been a submitted wife for nearly five years now, and I don't feel degraded in the least. Being put on a pedestal and adored is about as far from degradation as you can get, and that's the treatment I get from my husband.

I don't want to be on a pedestal. I want to stand on the same ground as my husband so we can have the same perspective of what is happening around us and we can face things together. I strongly encourage him to adore me, of course,

but I want him to have a complete view of my strengths and weakness so our relationship can have a realistic basis.

hwnorth · Mar 28, 2008

LOOK ... THERE GOES ELVIS !!!!

Could we get back on track ? .. this thread was about sexual freedom ... not on someone who has a god and thinks he/she is the only god and submissive and definition of such etc ...

cheers

hwnorth · Mar 28, 2008

Mindy said:
So Lissa, if you had sex before marriage, God sees your sin exactly the same as the sin of the gay man... So... just something to think about.

Actually I beg to differ... there is nothing in the Christian bible against pre marital sex.

Teresa · Mar 28, 2008

Actually, there is....

Consider that the Bible doesn't always explain things using the same words that we would use. For example, we sometimes talk about "the Trinity" or "the Second Coming" as if these are Biblical phrases, but actually the Bible never uses these terms (even though these concepts are clearly taught in Scripture, as I have shown in some of my other articles). Therefore, it's important that we try to look at the greatest weight of evidence in order to find out what the New Testament reveals about God's will concerning premarital sex, even if the Bible never uses the words "premarital sex."

First, notice how strongly the New Testament speaks out against sexual sins:
"Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body." (1 Corinthians 6:18-20)

"But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people." (Ephesians 5:3)
The above passages tell us to flee from sexual immorality and not allow even a hint of sexual immorality in our lives. These are strong words, so it is important that we make the right decision about premarital sex.

Now notice some more ways that God condemns sexual immorality:
"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

"We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did--and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died." (1 Corinthians 10:8)

"Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral." (Hebrews 13:4)

"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars-- their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." (Revelation 21:8)
These passages say that the "sexually immoral" will not inherit the kingdom of God, but instead they will be judged and will be sent to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. Christians will not be sent to the fiery lake of burning sulfur, but the above passages give us a very clear idea of the heart of God concerning sexual immorality. God has a strong view of any kind of immorality, so we should try to err on the side of purity. For example, the apostle Paul said that the Church will be presented to Christ as a pure virgin bride:
"I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him." (2 Corinthians 11:2)
This indicates that purity and virginity are highly valued before marriage in Scripture. Premarital sex takes away that purity and virginity. For those who have already lost that purity before marriage, God is willing to forgive our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). As Christian recording artist Rebecca St. James says, if we have made the mistake of having sex before marriage then we can repent and give our sexuality back to God and become "recycled virgins." As I see it, the idea of being a "recycled virgin" means that we have received forgiveness from God and we are now keeping ourselves pure for marriage without having premarital sex anymore (just like a virgin).

Notice that the apostle Paul said that if unmarried people cannot control their sexual desires then they should get married:
"Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion [literally, "be inflamed (with anger, grief, lust)" - see Strong's Greek Dictionary]." (1 Corinthians 7:8-9)
The above passage says that if unmarried people are not able to be celibate (as Paul was) and they find themselves burning with sexual desire, then they should get married in order to avoid committing any sexual sins. This means that sex outside of marriage is a sin, as the following passage also indicates:
"Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman [or, "It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman," according to the NIV footnote]. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband." (1 Corinthians 7:1-2, KJV)
In the above passage, notice that Paul had a very specific reason why people should get married: "to avoid fornication." Here is what the English word "fornication" means:

"to have sex with someone who you are not married to" (Freesearch Dictionary )

"Fornication: Sexual intercourse that is "illicit", outside of marriage." (Medical Dictionary )

"fornication n. sexual intercourse between a man and woman who are not married to each other." (Law Dictionary )

"consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other" (Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary )

"NOUN: Sexual intercourse between partners who are not married to each other.
WORD HISTORY: The word fornication had a lowly beginning suitable to what has long been the low moral status of the act to which it refers. The Latin word fornix, from which fornicti, the ancestor of fornication, is derived, meant "a vault, an arch." The term also referred to a vaulted cellar or similar place where prostitutes plied their trade. This sense of fornix in Late Latin yielded the verb fornicr, "to commit fornication," from which is derived fornicti, "whoredom, fornication." Our word is first recorded in Middle English about 1303." (The American Heritageï¿½ Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000. )

"c.1300, from O.Fr. fornication, from L.L. fornicationem (nom. fornicatio), from fornicari "fornicate," from L. fornix (gen. fornicis) "brothel," originally "arch, vaulted chamber" (Roman prostitutes commonly solicited from under the arches of certain buildings), from fornus "oven of arched or domed shape." Strictly, "voluntary sex between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman;" extended in the Bible to adultery." (Online Etymology Dictionary )

When Bible translations, Bible commentaries, etc., use the English word "fornication," the primary meaning of this word is voluntary sex between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. As we can see in the definitions above, the word "fornication" has had the basic meaning of "prostitution, premarital sex" since the 1300's (which was before the KJV was written in 1611). "Fornication" is the word which many Bible scholars use for translating the Greek word porneia into English when the Scriptural context is describing premarital sex. According to various Greek dictionaries and Bible commentaries, here is what the Greek word porneia means:

"harlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively idolatry: - fornication." (Strong's Greek Dictionary , emphasis added)

"porneia:
1) illicit sexual intercourse
1a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
1b) sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
1c) sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mar_10:11,Mar_10:12
2) metaphorically the worship of idols
2a) of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols" (Thayer's Greek Dictionary , emphasis added)

Is Premarital Sex A Sin?

jtee · Mar 28, 2008

While my wife and I have very different type of marriage than Teresa, I do respect Teresa's choice because it makes their marriage work and Teresa seems quite happy to be in a submissive wife. My wife couldn't be that way, and I wouldn't want her to be.

I have known several married couples that have unique relationships that if describe on paper so-to-speak, would never work, but it does, and works extremely well for them. Outsides say "That's just crazy", but from my perspective, if it works for that couple (setting aside legal and abuse issues), then I support their lifestyle. I know of a married couple that live in separate homes (kids are grown) a couple of miles apart. It seems strange, but it works for them.

hwnorth · Mar 28, 2008

<r><s></s><s></s> Exodus 22:16 - 17, "If a man seduces a virgin who is not engaged, and lies with her, he must pay a dowry for her to be his wife. If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money equal to the dowry for virgins." 
 
Deuteronomy 22:28 - 29, "If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered, then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days." 
 
<e></e><e></e><s></s>So, translation of the Christian Bible differs .. many say the old testament is wrong and the new testament is right ... so was the first one just practice or were they just kidding? 
 
Google the song "Keep your Jesus off my Penis" ... 
 
NO ONE has the right to judge, gay, straight, black, white... we all have the freedom to be who we choose... and although you may want to follow some ancient holy book that no one knows the TRUE translation .. dont pass your judgment on to others. 
 
Theres a bible out there there that says blond hair, blue eyes anglo ... all others should die .... should we follow that too ?? 
<e></e></r>

gr8mom · Mar 28, 2008

The old testament passage you quoted does not state that premarital sex is okay or not a sin. I think it's playing pretty fast and loose with scripture to say that the old testament condones premarital sex. That being said it is not up to me to judge anyone else only our Creator can judge, since he alone is without sin.

John 8:7, Mathew 7:1-5

hwnorth · Mar 28, 2008

<r>Let me sum it up with a few lines of a song ... 

<CENTER><s><CENTER>

</s>So you’re screaming bloody murder 
'Bout the taliban regime 
For subjugating women 
And being too extreme 
And basing legislation 
On some ancient holy book 
Does that sound a bit familiar? 
Here's a mirror, have a look 
 
 
And as for the ten commandments 
They need one more at least 
Thou shall never cover up 
The acts of pervert priests 
 
So you'll execute a person 
And protect a single cell 
But mercy-kill the terminally ill 
And you're goin' straight to hell 
I don't know much about 
The word of God 
Far be it from me 
But I can tell you what it ain't 
Hypochristianity 
 
I am not anti-Christian 
Before you grab a rope 
There is beauty in religion 
And joy and love and hope 
We're all looking for an answer 
Some colossal cosmic cause 
But who the f#ck are you 
To turn your views into my laws? 
 
 
It's just believers in the bible 
That would have abortion banned 
Anti-choice agnostics? 
I could count’em on one hand 
 
 
And as for killing babies 
I have but one retort 
If someone raped your daughter George 
You'd beg her to abort 
 
 
And if some young girl from your church 
Shows up with child or some infection 
‘Cuz you taught her what a horrid sin 
It was to use protection 
One day you'll face the pearly gates 
And whatchu gonna say 
When that long-haired Jewish peacenick 
Sends your ass the other way sayin’ 

<e>

</CENTER></e></CENTER></r>

hwnorth · Mar 28, 2008

Jesus completed the old testament law by bringing infusing it with love. Look at the Sermon on the Mount we've been reading. At each point Jesus says the important thing is love.

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica] Jesus is recorded as having given hundreds of instructions covering behavior and thought; but none of these dealt with homosexuality. Jesus concentrated on a person's interactions with God and his fellow humans. He did tell the woman who committed adultery to go and sin no more. But that was the only time he is known to have commented on sexual morality. Jesus may have felt that homosexuality was not a matter worth commenting upon.

How about the Hebrew Scriptures ?

[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Genesis 19 describes the destruction of Sodom, which has been attributed to the homosexuality of its citizens; the men may have wanted to rape the (male) angels. Actually, the text at this point is ambiguous; the original Hebrew word sometimes referred to sexual activity although it usually meant "to know" in a literal sense. But a careful reading of Genesis and Ezekiel reveals that inhospitality, pride, idol worship, and lack of consideration for the poor were their prime sins. If homosexuality was involved, it was obviously not consensual sexual activity; it was rape. So we can safely conclude that Sodom was destroyed because of the sins of its citizens which included their habit of raping visitors. Judges 19 seems to be a duplicate of the Genesis story[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Leviticus 18:22 & 20:13 appears to condemn male homosexual behavior, but in fact only refers to temple prostitution. Even if it did refer to lesbian and gay relationships, it would not be applicable to Christians today, any more than are the other 613 laws which make up the Jewish Holiness Code. It is less than genuine for a Christian teleminister or theologian to imply that these verses are still valid for the beliefs and conduct of Christians, while stating that the remaining laws of the Holiness Code are not applicable[/FONT]

Interesting what a bit of research will dig up. This is not to be offensive to anyones faith .. we are all entitled to our own... but it is meant to make a point that things aren't always so ... "just because I was told it was so" ... which is how I feel about a lot of religious law

etceterae · Mar 29, 2008

ivybendorf said:
I am going to make a few statements here and then be done. Homosexuality is a very common thing among higher mammals, not just humans. Pedophilia and bestiality (or interspecies, as it may be) are NOT present in the animal kingdom whatsoever. So, that being said, it is safe to assume pedophilia and interspecies are illnesses, NOT natural urges, and I refuse to listen to the being compared.

Interspecies reproduction occurs. Tigers and lions can have babies, as well as a variety of other animals.

ivybendorf · Mar 29, 2008

etceterae said:
Interspecies reproduction occurs. Tigers and lions can have babies, as well as a variety of other animals.

A) Tigers and lions do not share territory in the wild and never meet.

B) Ligers and other crosses, such as mules, are only created when the parents are placed in a human controlled, unnatural environment like a corral or a zoo.

Basically, interspecies matings do occur, but only because Man made it so.

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