SPANKING revisited...

[PianoLover]

Your weeing in the wind.

Because I have asked you a simple question and you have not answered it.
You said clearly you have not seen any evidence that a few reasoned spanks are detrimental, and I am saying what evidence would be satisfactory to prove that they were and cause you to recant your position? If what you are saying is that nothing in the world could possibly cause you to recant then that would suggest that evidence is not the issue at hand, that's all.

If, on the other hand, you are willing to say "in such and such a circumstance where you could prove X, Y and Z I'd be willing to change my mind," then I know we're actually having a conversation.

 

[tadamsmar]

I think I introduced "abuse" into the conversation. My intention was to be referring to a legal issue, a parent breaking the law.

There are lots of spankers concerned with getting hauled into court, and some are. These parents tend to be concerned with leaving marks.

But perhaps many of these are followers of the psychologist, bible-thumper, and popular parenting-book author James Dobson. Dobson, founder of Focus on the Family, recommends parents use a paddle, swish, or other "neutral" object and reserve the hand as an object of love. Also, his philosophy probably leads to lots of spankings, since he advocates using spanking for any sign of defiance. In one of his books recommends threatening to spank a kid you don't like the tone or duration of the kid's crying after the last spanking you just gave the kid.

I can see how parents who use a paddle and spank often would be concerned about leaving marks and getting hauled into court. Also, parents unskilled in effective disipline will end up conditioning their kids to engage in unwanted behavior and then spank them for it with little effect and that could lead to lots of spanking.

The other issue is "harm", the discussion of whether infrequent spanking causes harm. Perhaps not if he environment is generally supportive, but there could be kids that react to infrequent spanking by being in constant stress due because they feel they are under a constant threat of having pain inflicted on them by their parents if, for instance, another kid on the bus gets out of their seat because they find the image on their netbook interesting. They may feel a constant lack of control because it's hard for a kid to predict the side effects of their every move.

Anyway, the harm issue is a matter of research, abuse is a matter of law. That was my intent when I mentioned abuse.

 

[tadamsmar]

Because I have asked you a simple question and you have not answered it.
You said clearly you have not seen any evidence that a few reasoned spanks are detrimental, and I am saying what evidence would be satisfactory to prove that they were and cause you to recant your position? If what you are saying is that nothing in the world could possibly cause you to recant then that would suggest that evidence is not the issue at hand, that's all.

If, on the other hand, you are willing to say "in such and such a circumstance where you could prove X, Y and Z I'd be willing to change my mind," then I know we're actually having a conversation.

Lots of luck getting him actually engage in a civil debate on the points you raise rather than just insult you and ignore your points.

 

[tadamsmar]

PianoLover, as you can see SingleDad rejects science. Bssage goes further and does not even bother with logic or any semblance of debating the issues.

And these are the moderators of this board!

QED: You can't win here.

 

[singledad]

PianoLover, as you can see SingleDad rejects science. Bssage goes further and does not even bother with logic or any semblance of debating the issues.

And these are the moderators of this board!

QED: You can't win here.

I'm not a mod.

And if declining to debate the true meaning of a word that have devastated a large part of my life, based on a definition that was very likely formulated by someone who wanted to prove a point, is rejecting science, well, then I suppose I reject science. Pity I didn't realize sooner. I could have saved myself all the time I've spent reading studies on various topics...

 

[singledad]

Anyway, the harm issue is a matter of research, abuse is a matter of law. That was my intent when I mentioned abuse.

Yes, harm is a matter of research. Agreed.

But no, abuse is NOT a matter of law. Laws get it wrong too often. Abuse is very, very much a matter or research, education, and understanding.

But then, once again, I'm not talking about the legal/scientific definition of abuse. I'm talking about abuse as I experienced it. So I guess I'm rejecting science again.

 

[Mom2all]

Let me help you Single Dad.. with some science.

In reference to spanking... most scientific researchers and child welfare organizations oppose it. Some studies have say that it doesn't benefit the child, and can causes anxiety, alcohol abuse, or dependence and externalizing problems and various other issues.
However...some researchers are critical of these studies as scientifically unsound and have pointed out methodological flaws in how they were conducted, as well as the conclusions drawn. For instance.. a longitudinal study by Trulane University in 2010 controlled for a wide variety of confounding variables and still found negative outcomes in children who were spanked more than twice per month.
On the other hand, the study did not show a statistically significant difference between spanking once or twice per month and not spanking at all.
So scientifically, if we spank them less than twice a month.. they'll be as good as those not spanked in the long haul. Now... we're free to pop a rear end within limits without it being called abuse.

There is scientific research on how best to pour ketchup. (I've not bothered to read the results because how I pour mine seems to be working out fine.) You can however find research to back whatever side you want to on anything out there.. or to oppose it.

 

[tadamsmar]

Yes, harm is a matter of research. Agreed.

But no, abuse is NOT a matter of law. Laws get it wrong too often. Abuse is very, very much a matter or research, education, and understanding.

But then, once again, I'm not talking about the legal/scientific definition of abuse. I'm talking about abuse as I experienced it. So I guess I'm rejecting science again.

I agree that the laws may well have it wrong and do not really define abuse. I just meant to use "abuse" refer to the issue that spanking can get one close to or over the threshold for investigation or legal action. That was a bad choice since abuse is a broader concept and not just a term used in the law.

 

[mom2many]

PianoLover, as you can see SingleDad rejects science. Bssage goes further and does not even bother with logic or any semblance of debating the issues.

And these are the moderators of this board!

QED: You can't win here.

I'm gonna step in here.....and get this I am a mod. I have very clearly answered your questions and you skipped right over them. Bssage has also answered your questions on more then one point, but because he isn't saying exactly what you want him to say you are nit picking the point. Nit picking is not a debate, a debate is stating each persons perspective, sometimes with facts and sometimes with life experiences and putting it out there for others to discuss.

A debate is no longer a debate when someone is so hell bent on proving themselves right that they forget that someone else's view very well may differ from yours. Guess what? That's okay. You however feel the need to belittle the person who doesn't agree with you. So here is my very clear warning....continue putting people down, and I will have no problem banning you. The other mod's have held off....I have no problem not. Let this be a warning to anyone who feels the need to put a person down. A healthy debate is fun and great, step over the line to personal attacks and I will end it.

 

[tadamsmar]

I pointed out an apparent contradiction, and he did not explain it, he just sent me a private insult and a CP demotion. He said that spanking was necessary an he does not support it. Perhaps I made a wrong interpretation, but all I get is a private insult and a CP demotion. An acceptable response would be just to point out my error.

I carefully read his original post, listed the claims he make in favor or spanking accompished nothing but implanting memories even if they were all true. He ignored that so I either have to assume he inflicts pain his kid merely to cause memories, or I have to read something more into his posts, pretend to be a mind-reader.

 

[tadamsmar]

The best way to address kid safety is similar to the way it is addressed in the work environment, by awareness and control of hazards. Here's a good site on addresssing safety in the home:

http://www.safekids.org/safety-basics/

Lots of parents think of spanking their kids as some sort of safety practice. Part of this is based on the mistaken idea that more severe punishments are more effective in eliminating unsafe behavior. If fact, punishment is far from 100% effective and ramping it up gets you nowhere close to where you need to be, there are typically more effective preventive measures that should be pursued. Punishment is a very poor substitute for optimal preventive measures.

 

[AmynKayla]

A debate is no longer a debate when someone is so hell bent on proving themselves right that they forget that someone else's view very well may differ from yours. Guess what? That's okay. You however feel the need to belittle the person who doesn't agree with you. So here is my very clear warning....continue putting people down, and I will have no problem banning you. The other mod's have held off....I have no problem not. Let this be a warning to anyone who feels the need to put a person down. A healthy debate is fun and great, step over the line to personal attacks and I will end it.

The thing is, I've noticed this same thing too. I find the belittling abusive in its own right. I shake my head because one states how they are against spanking as its abusive and then carries on to verbally condecend and abuse somebody for stating their point of view, simply because it differs from theirs.

As for abuse, I CAN comment on that. I live with the effects every day in a little girl that spent 6 1/2 yrs knowing little else. I'd lay money on the fact that she could explain the difference and it would likely look very much like singledad's explanation. There is a very real difference between spanking and abuse. I dont think anyone likes to spank thier child. And everyone here loves their kids. Whether you spank or dont, I think its really far fetched to suggest that anyone here abuses their children. Everyone makes mistakes in child rearing, and I'm not saying that spanking is a "mistake", but I'm sure we could put any one of those choices under a microscope and go on about how wrong it is. Just saying.

You can find a study to prove almost anything. And one thing I've learned about parenting is that everyone has an opinion. Its your job to weed out the advice you dont agree with and use the advice that makes sense to you. It doesn't make anyone's advice "wrong" necessarily, just not compatable with your beliefs. Amy

 

[tadamsmar]

The best way to address kid safety is similar to the way it is addressed in the work environment, by awareness and control of hazards. Here's a good site on addresssing safety in the home:

http://www.safekids.org/safety-basics/

Lots of parents think of spanking their kids as some sort of safety practice. Part of this is based on the mistaken idea that more severe punishments are more effective in eliminating unsafe behavior. If fact, punishment is far from 100% effective and ramping it up gets you nowhere close to where you need to be, there are typically more effective preventive measures that should be pursued. Punishment is a very poor substitute for optimal preventive measures.

Consider the kid is carrying a can of gas toward a fire. Safekids say that gas should be secured in a locked area and kids should be supevised near a fire.

The best way to address safety is via a quality systems approach where you look to improve the system so that there is less reliance on individuals always being perfect rather than seeking someone to blame and punish.

It would probably be best to get kids interested in helping to find and secure hazards and to come up with prevention ideas.

On side-effect of spanking is that kids become more sneaky and secretive. This would tend to undermine the activities that lead to a safe environment.

 

[mom2many]

Consider the kid is carrying a can of gas toward a fire. Safekids say that gas should be secured in a locked area and kids should be supevised near a fire.

The best way to address safety is via a quality systems approach where you look to improve the system so that there is less reliance on individuals always being perfect rather than seeking someone to blame and punish.

It would probably be best to get kids interested in helping to find and secure hazards and to come up with prevention ideas.

On side-effect of spanking is that kids become more sneaky and secretive. This would tend to undermine the activities that lead to a safe environment.

Wouldn't it be great if parents could for see every possible danger that could/ might happen. Realistically...things get by us. I can give many instances, take my youngest. The great houdini, and that is not an exaggeration. There was a period of time where she was a runner, we had measures in place. It wasn't hard for her to literally disappear. We had the tag team method if we went outside, she knew better. She would even tell us that she would stay by us and in the yard. Clearly she was aware that it was bad.

One day even our best of intentions failed. She was in the garden picking tomato's with me. My older ones were spread out but she was right beside me, no once expected her to escape. I bent down to pick a tomato stood up and she was gone. I yelled to the other kids to see if she had wondered in their zone. She hadn't, then I realized that the dogs were gone. they always stay by the kids sides.

She was 1/4 of a mile up the road by a very deep irrigation canal. In a matter of minutes she had gone that far and it would have only taken a matter of seconds for her to have fallen in and died. You bet her little butt got it's very first spanking. One swat, that's all it took and she never ran again.

In a perfect world, children would have the ability to foresee danger, but they don't. Most parents who spank, don't do it to show they are dominate, ,parents don't do it to create fear in their children. They do it because in that situation...nothing else worked. notice I said most, there are always those who abuse something. even a time out can be abused.

 

[Mom2all]

He ignored that so I either have to assume he inflicts pain his kid merely to cause memories, or I have to read something more into his posts, pretend to be a mind-reader.

Rude. That's really all I have to say about that.

 

[mom2many]

I pointed out an apparent contradiction, and he did not explain it, he just sent me a private insult and a CP demotion. He said that spanking was necessary an he does not support it. Perhaps I made a wrong interpretation, but all I get is a private insult and a CP demotion. An acceptable response would be just to point out my error.

I carefully read his original post, listed the claims he make in favor or spanking accompished nothing but implanting memories even if they were all true. He ignored that so I either have to assume he inflicts pain his kid merely to cause memories, or I have to read something more into his posts, pretend to be a mind-reader.

He has answered your questions. He has not answered them in a way you feel he should. Again, I am not sending out a PM, I am making my point very clear and it is not something I will argue about. And yet again, you attack him personally.

I don't even think bssage spanks...you are making an assumption off of the fact that while he chooses not to do it he doesn't see it as abuse. That he can understand why some parents take that route. Now if that hasn't spelled out he stance then I don't know what to tell you. It's obvious that you are the one not understanding and instead you are trying to push him and a few others into believing what you believe.


This is my final warning to you about personal attacks. Try it again and I will ban you. Period. End of discussion.

 

[cybele]

Consider the kid is carrying a can of gas toward a fire. Safekids say that gas should be secured in a locked area and kids should be supevised near a fire.

The best way to address safety is via a quality systems approach where you look to improve the system so that there is less reliance on individuals always being perfect rather than seeking someone to blame and punish.

It would probably be best to get kids interested in helping to find and secure hazards and to come up with prevention ideas.

On side-effect of spanking is that kids become more sneaky and secretive. This would tend to undermine the activities that lead to a safe environment.

How often does a child carry a can of gas towards a fire? Seriously?

Can anyone here say they have intercepted their child carrying a can of gas towards a fire?

I have an issue with over the top hypothetical examples. Parenting "mistakes" that don't tend to happen to the vast majority of people being used to back up an argument really doesn't move to conversation forward any.

Yes, I would say that all of us here keep our cans of gas and our fires as far away from each other as possible, and as far away from our children as possible.



I am not pro-spanking, but there have been a very small number of times when it was my only option, but like SingleDad and Amy, it bothers me to see it compared to abuse, and like Amy, I agree that belittling someone in the same breath as arguing abuse isn't proving much of a point.



There are dangers you cannot foresee, one of the instances when I had to spank was a few years ago when we had large bushfires (look! fires!) in our area, we had to evacuate, the national park that our house backs on to was burning and Lux was being as stubborn as a wart and would not leave her toys. She sat on the floor in her bedroom screaming "NO NO NO NO NO"

Now as much as I would have liked to talk her through it, it takes seconds for a fire to move through dry native Australian vegetation and there were high winds that day and we could see the flames from our back window, so I tried picking her up, but I am very small and she was kicking and screaming and I couldn't carry her, so I hit her on the bottom. Yeah, it shocked her, and it shocked her into moving her butt out the front door, and I will always stand by that being the right thing to do in that moment.



That's a pretty extreme example, but it is reality for people where I live, but the point is that we cannot always perceive dangers far enough in advance to react in a calm manner. Sometimes we freak out, and sometimes it proves to be an action that keeps our kids safe.

 

[singledad]

The thing is, I've noticed this same thing too. I find the belittling abusive in its own right. I shake my head because one states how they are against spanking as its abusive and then carries on to verbally condecend and abuse somebody for stating their point of view, simply because it differs from theirs.

Yes, it just demonstrates how little they actually understand about abuse.

It would be easier to accept if I knew that they realised how fortunate they were to be able to be that ignorant.

As I've said before - the only people who don't understand the difference between spanking and beating/abuse, is those who have never come into contact with the latter. To those of us who have seen/experienced abuse, or seen the effects of it as you have, the difference is as clear as light and day.

For the record - @tad and Piano - bssage doesn't answer to you, you have no right to force him to repeat his opinion that, in all fairness, he has already explained quite well earlier in this thread. I would suggest that, instead of attacking him for refusing to repeat himself, you go back and read the rest of this tread.

Oh, and how about responding to the substance of my post, instead of just making absurd accusations based on the post-script?

 

[tadamsmar]

How often does a child carry a can of gas towards a fire? Seriously?

Can anyone here say they have intercepted their child carrying a can of gas towards a fire?

I have an issue with over the top hypothetical examples. Parenting "mistakes" that don't tend to happen to the vast majority of people being used to back up an argument really doesn't move to conversation forward any.

I should have mentioned that I chose that example deliberately to contrast the systems approach with the approach of bssage's dad to this situation mentioned earlier in this thread:

If it helps identify my pattern. My dad spanked me once when I carried a 5 gallon can of gas toward a small bon fire.

Cybele, I have a similar criticism of that safekids.org site I cited. They give lots of good suggestions, but it would be nice it they prioritized the hazards.

I have read that household bleach accounts for a large percentage of calls to poison control. 1/3 if I recall correctly. But I don't know the relative severity of these incidents.

Teen driving safety is an important one. I just posted on the News forum about an effort to get parents to improve there methods of teaching teen drivers about safety. It tries to get parents to drop some common habits that are ineffective in favor or most effective techniques.

 

[tadamsmar]

Bssage said he has spanked in the OP (post #1) of this thread. Please look at the OP, if I am wrong I am willing to admit it. He did say he has not spanked recently but it's still in his toolbox.

He said he spanked rarely and with his hand.

This is long old thread and I guess it's hard to keep up with everything said.

I spanked my kid a few times, but I quit when a psychologist friend of mine pointed out that kids get kind of immune to the pain. That seemed to fit my observations of my daughter and I quit it, removed it from by toolbox.