SPANKING revisited...

[MomoJA]

They're not assertions they are historical facts documented in <I>The Emotional Life of Nations </I>and <I>The Origins of War in Child Abuse </I>with copious examples and reference to evidence.

Spartans basically exposed all children, the ones who survived were deemed not weak, their idea of schooling was to beat the crap out of children then send them out with a knife to opress some Helots.

with regards to your point:
"Some women still emotionally reject their children, and most of those women do not spank them."

All six of the child-rearing categories (Infanticidal, Abandoning, Ambivalent, Intrusive, Socialising, Helping) still coexist today it's not like everyone has suddenly changed but there has been a clear progression towards the more psychologically healthy methods.

and:
"What does this have to do with spanking?"

Spanking, as you describe it, by loving, caring parents, who in your view are being criminalized are found leaning from the "helping" mode towards the "socializing" mode if you can see it as a continuum. I say they are being criminalized in your view because I don't see someone who hits a child to teach them a lesson as the victim in the situation, the victim is the child who has been spanked when it's completely unnecessary to use physical punishment as a greater and greater number of parents are proving. I'm not a fan of any sort of consequence which is chosed deliberately because it is unpleasant but even time outs and such like are miles ahead of hitting.


We can't say violence is wrong between adults then say it's ok to hit a child. That's like a 60 foot tall giant hitting an adult. If it's wrong for an adult to hit an adult it's 100 times more wrong for an adult to hit a defenseless child. What could be more terrifying than being in position where someone who is the source of your security in life is physically harming you and you cannot escape. The mere though of it should bring disgust to anyone, it's traumatising.

Remember it used to be socially acceptible for a man to hit his wife for not complying with his wishes. It wasn't right then and it still isn't right now. Violence is never justified except in the extremes of self-defence.

Your comparisons are simplistic at best. Intentionally oblivious at worst. And your understanding of "historical fact" is erroneous if you think that commenting on the "feelings" parents from over 600 years ago had about their children is a fact. That's the first error in the argument. The second is that 1+1 does not equal 4. Child rape does not equal spanking. To suggest it does is irresponsible to the extreme. To suggest that there is even a correlation is irresponsible and insensitive to victims of child rape. I will not comment on every ridiculous example given of horrific treatment of man by man, but the same can be said about each and every one of them. Irresponsible and insensitive to the victims of that sort of abuse to equate spanking in any way on any level to those things.

Also, no adult should ever treat another adult as they treat their child and vice versa. It's called parenting. If another adult tries to parent me, I think he is an idiot. If another adult tried to put me in time out or told me to close my mouth while I was chewing, or moved my milk so that I didn't spill it, I'd think he was pompous and rude. If another adult tried to spank me, I'd think he was insane and I'd probably call for the "coocoo wagon." If he tried to hit me, that would be a different thing all together. I would think he was a criminal. I'd call the police. There's a difference, but you can't or won't see it.

Again, rape is not sex. And spanking is not paedophilia, child rape, sacrificing children to the gods, or abuse. Let's not be so hysterical. If you disagree with spanking, that's your right. But you lose all credibility with these sorts of comparisons.

 

[parentastic]

Child rape does not equal spanking. To suggest it does is irresponsible to the extreme. To suggest that there is even a correlation is irresponsible and insensitive to victims of child rape. Irresponsible and insensitive to the victims of that sort of abuse to equate spanking in any way on any level to those things.

This is not what PianoLover has said, or even implicated.
What he said was that history shows that children have been abused and treated terribly for the longest time. For hundred of years, they were exploited, abused, used, they had no rights what so ever and were treated as property by their parents.
This tendency can be observed across several cultures [not all of them], as far as we can record, and although it has improved, it still hasn't reached the point where it's no longer the case.
Today, children as still exploited in some part of the world (see child soldiers, or child work in sweatshops), and they are still treated with violence <I>for their own good</I> as their parents punish them physically - even if we could argue till the end of time about the <I>degree</I> of physical violence involved in a spanking.

To imply PianoLover is saying child rape = spanking is disingenuous, IMO. Both are violent act, at different end of a spectrum that started way back and improves now with each passing decade.

Also, no adult should ever treat another adult as they treat their child and vice versa. It's called parenting.

No adult should act the same way with a child they are parenting than they do with an adult, obviously. Their relationship is not the same, nor is their respective power or dependency.
However, every child deserves the same <U><I>respect</I></U> an adult would show another adult.

If another adult tries to parent me, I think he is an idiot.

I think many children also think just that about us adults when we parent them

If another adult tried to put me in time out or told me to close my mouth while I was chewing, or moved my milk so that I didn't spill it, I'd think he was pompous and rude.

Why would a child think differently?
Not saying it means we don't need to get them to stop showing with their mouth open or anything, but I think that this bit of perspective taking is enlightening as to what children truly may feel about us, and parents could benefit from taking this into account, if their goals are to nurture a deeper relationship.

If another adult tried to spank me, I'd think he was insane and I'd probably call for the "coocoo wagon." If he tried to hit me, that would be a different thing all together. I would think he was a criminal. I'd call the police. There's a difference, but you can't or won't see it.

What if that adult who hit you is absolutely, totally, 100% fully convinced he is hitting you for your own good, to teach you something you really need for your future life? Would that change how you feel?

Again, rape is not sex. And spanking is not paedophilia, child rape, sacrificing children to the gods, or abuse.

What about violence? is spanking violent? or not?

 

[MomoJA]

This is not what PianoLover has said, or even implicated.

That's exactly what he implied. There is a direct line from those abuses to spanking - that is more than implied in his line of argument. Spanking is the "last hold out" of this sort of abuse. If he is not implying that, why put it in a spanking argument? I say one has nothing to do with the other, so leave it out of the argument. In the same way rape has nothing to do with sex. In the same way that eating has nothing to do with obesity. "Let me start my disertation on obesity. People have been eating since the beginning of time. Early man killed entire mammoths to feed a small tribe . . . "

If someone brought up sex in a discussion about rape in the way that these sorts of abuses are brought up in a discussion about spanking, I would be offended beyond measure. I think if I had been the victim of any of those abuses on children and someone tried to equate spanking with them, or referred to them "in passing" in a lead up to my argument against spanking, I think I would be very, very angry.

What he said was that history shows that children have been abused and treated terribly for the longest time. For hundred of years, they were exploited, abused, used, they had no rights what so ever and were treated as property by their parents.
This tendency can be observed across several cultures [not all of them], as far as we can record, and although it has improved, it still hasn't reached the point where it's no longer the case.
Today, children as still exploited in some part of the world (see child soldiers, or child work in sweatshops), and they are still treated with violence <I>for their own good</I> as their parents punish them physically - even if we could argue till the end of time about the <I>degree</I> of physical violence involved in a spanking.

And this was my point as well. These abuses continue. They didn't morph into spanking. So what is the point of uttering them in the same breath as spanking except as hysteria or you are being disingenous.

To imply PianoLover is saying child rape = spanking is disingenuous, IMO. Both are violent act, at different end of a spectrum that started way back and improves now with each passing decade.

There's the correlation I discussed in the response you call me disingenous about. You've just done it again.

No adult should act the same way with a child they are parenting than they do with an adult, obviously. Their relationship is not the same, nor is their respective power or dependency.
However, every child deserves the same <U><I>respect</I></U> an adult would show another adult.

Why would a child think differently?
Not saying it means we don't need to get them to stop showing with their mouth open or anything, but I think that this bit of perspective taking is enlightening as to what children truly may feel about us, and parents could benefit from taking this into account, if their goals are to nurture a deeper relationship.

And this is why you always end up offending people. What makes you think that anyone who does not "parent" the way you, who has no children of his own, parents does not receive respect for his child or take their perspective into account? You know nothing about their relationships with their children, but you assume that because a parent attempts to teach a child to have manners that will benefit him in the future, he/she is not considering the child's perspective. You judge people you know nothing about. If you ever had a child of your own, you might understand a little better about how a parent respects his child. These sorts of implications about parents you know nothing about are the height of arrogance, pomposity, and bias and they reveal either a lack of experience or an attitude so filled with self-importance that it blinds the person to any view but his own.

What if that adult who hit you is absolutely, totally, 100% fully convinced he is hitting you for your own good, to teach you something you really need for your future life? Would that change how you feel?

No. Categorically, no. What's the next quantum leap of comparison? Again, maybe you can only understand if you have a child.

What about violence? is spanking violent? or not?

No.

 

[PianoLover]

TSpanking is the "last hold out" of this sort of abuse. If he is not implying that, why put it in a spanking argument?.... In the same way rape has nothing to do with sex. [/qupte] ExCUSE me??? Did you just compare an analogy between spanking and more severe forms of child abuse to the difference between sex and rape???

Sex is CONSENTUAL
No child CONSENTS to be being spanked (although they are statistically more likely to enjoy being spanked as a sexual activity as well as more extreme forms of powerplay later in life than people who aren't spanked)

<I>"When a child hits a child, we call it aggression.
When a child hits an adult, we call it hostility.
When an adult hits an adult, we call it assault.
When an adult hits a child, we call it discipline."</I>
- Haim G. Ginot

Even though I did not imply all you are saying I implied, you are right. Spanking is the last hold out of physical abuse, and saying you had it worse does not change the fact that your children could have it even better than what you are giving already them if you don't use violence.

It really shouldn't take much to see that inflicting violence to teach a defenceless child a lesson is an abuse of power, will make them either resent you or turn that resentment inwards and point it at themselves (hate themselves) and also teaches that it's acceptible to use violence to get what you want so long as you are the more powerful party.

You do your children a disservice by using violence on them, you give them a greater liklihood of developing depression, anxiety disorders and showing symptoms of PTSD. That should seem obvious even without all the psychological evidence behind it, of course hitting a child is going to put them in fight or flight mode, and because they are helpless, this will be experienced as a trauma.

Throw aggression out of your tool box, you have everything to gain and nothing to lose, more people than are showing it is possible. This is the least violent time human history, it's just hard to see it because the weapons are more dangerous and the news is on.

 

[parentastic]

Is spanking violent?

No.

:huh: Really?

Wow.
I rest my case.

 

[MomoJA]

TSpanking is the "last hold out" of this sort of abuse. If he is not implying that, why put it in a spanking argument?.... In the same way rape has nothing to do with sex. [/qupte] ExCUSE me??? Did you just compare an analogy between spanking and more severe forms of child abuse to the difference between sex and rape???

Sex is CONSENTUAL
No child CONSENTS to be being spanked (although they are statistically more likely to enjoy being spanked as a sexual activity as well as more extreme forms of powerplay later in life than people who aren't spanked)

<I>"When a child hits a child, we call it aggression.</I>
<I>When a child hits an adult, we call it hostility.</I>
<I>When an adult hits an adult, we call it assault.</I>
<I>When an adult hits a child, we call it discipline."</I>
- Haim G. Ginot

Even though I did not imply all you are saying I implied, you are right. Spanking is the last hold out of physical abuse, and saying you had it worse does not change the fact that your children could have it even better than what you are giving already them if you don't use violence.

It really shouldn't take much to see that inflicting violence to teach a defenceless child a lesson is an abuse of power, will make them either resent you or turn that resentment inwards and point it at themselves (hate themselves) and also teaches that it's acceptible to use violence to get what you want so long as you are the more powerful party.

You do your children a disservice by using violence on them, you give them a greater liklihood of developing depression, anxiety disorders and showing symptoms of PTSD. That should seem obvious even without all the psychological evidence behind it, of course hitting a child is going to put them in fight or flight mode, and because they are helpless, this will be experienced as a trauma.

Throw aggression out of your tool box, you have everything to gain and nothing to lose, more people than are showing it is possible. This is the least violent time human history, it's just hard to see it because the weapons are more dangerous and the news is on.

First, just so we are clear. I don't spank my child. However, I think it is none of YOUR business if I did.

Second, your understanding of the comment about sex and rape being different reveals it went over your head. I'm saying they are not on the same continuum. If you believe they are then you are pitifully mistaken and I hope you never have to find out first hand how far off you are. Spanking and child abuse are not on the same continuum either and you are being insensitive and irresponsible to say they are. (In case you still do not understand, I did not "compare an analogy" between sex and spanking. That's on you. The things are so far apart in my mind that I can see the whole picture of each pair -sex vs. rape, and spanking vs. abuse, without overlapping the two or confusing them in any way. I also used the pairing of eating vs. obesity, but your mind didn't get caught on that one, did it? That does not reflect on me.)

Third, your assertion that people who have been spanked are more likely to enjoy being spanked as a sexual activity is fallacious and is based on a "knee-jerk" reaction that has been passed down from one ingnorant person to the next without question. A word of advice, don't believe everything you read.

Fourth, why should I care what Haim Ginot thinks any more than I care what I think or the many excellent parents I know think who have proven success? I base my beliefs on reality, not the opinions of someone on a soapbox.

Finally, your assertion that the only thing that can come of spanking a child is that they will " . . . insert your comment here . . ." has been disproven more times just in your lifetime than you or I can count. Just, as a start, poll the people on this forum who were spanked.

Some people will react as you describe, but they are likely the people who would find any sort of parenting to have been damaging.

Just among my friends, I know none (coincidentally, I'm sure) who were spanked who resent their parents for it, but I know quite a few who were not spanked who speak with shocking disdain about their parents. When I learn more about their relationships, I discover the root of the disdain to be for all sorts of trivial reasons. They are simply the type of people who blame others and are dissatisfied with life, regardless. If they had been spanked, they would be the same and would probably be saying it was child abuse, but they weren't and yet they " . . . insert your comment here . . ."[/QUOTE]

 

[MomoJA]

:huh: Really?

Wow.
I rest my case.

And I rest mine.

Black and white view = simplistic, close-minded view.

 

[GavinH]

I look to my parents who raised me and a bunch of siblings, each of us turning out to be well adjusted, productive adults raising families of our own. We were all spanked soundly when necessary and understood our position in the family and in society. We also spank when necessary and I have noticed no ill effects in our children.

It seems that the more advice we take from academics on raising children and schooling them the more screwed up the world becomes. I grant you that this view is based on a small sample and is probably anecdotal at best. I would however challenge anyone to prove that it is not true.

 

[bssage]

Mojo correct me if I am wrong. I dont mean to speak for you.

I believe this is about PL using a sensationalist tactic that is clearly beyond the scope to make a point. And mojo is calling him out on it. It takes away from your argument rather than building it up PL. People can clearly see that the two are unrelated Rape, Spank.

Its the same as twisting the representation of studies to make a point. <U>I have yet to see anyone produce a study that indicates a couple of spanks in a lifetime, year, even a few times throughout a year have been in any way harmful. </U> If you have access to that study, not a report of a study. Please share it. This sensationalism and bending results of studies only weaken your point. And it angers people who feel you are playing them for fools. IMHO I think what the PL and psct are doing is trying to represent their opinion as fact when it is not. I am not discounting their opinion far from it. They are both valid and pertinent. But they are not facts.

pstc. I dont think there is going to be a "I win" moment in this thread. Not likely the sides will concede and (sorry) rather naive to believe they would.

What the thread can do is cause people to open their minds, do some research on their own and take a little time to be introspective. Whether we take away something from the thread is completely up to the reader.

A lot of the mods or vets where I'm sure were shaking their heads when I restarted the thread. I did it because we were getting a lot of spanking bleed over in other threads and the debate section is just a better place to to have this conversation. It really has been kinda fun.

 

[MomoJA]

Thanks bssage. That's exactly it. It is a bit of overkill, to understate the fact, and it is an ineffective form of argument. It only undermines the argument.

I completely understand why some people disapprove of spanking. I don't do it myself, not so much because I disapprove, but because I don't think I can do it effectively.

I think that some people use it very effectively, though probably only very few. Many people who use it, have good results, but there are probably other, better methods that can get the same results.

It's just that we are humans - parents and children. So parents will parent imperfectly, and children will not be harmed in the hysterical ways suggested by many in the anti-spanking camp - because they are humans, not control experiments. If spanking did that much harm, then we might as well raise our children remotely and robotically, because what the anti-spanking fanatics don't seem to understand because they are soooooo distracted by the physical aspect of a swat on the bottom is that good parents do FAR more harm every day to their children in ways other than spanking, and no matter how many books they read or how many classes they take, they will continue to do so because they are human. And the fact is that children survive and thrive, yes THRIVE, as a result. It builds their characters. Characters that are not built by their parents mistakes (and I'm not referring to spanking here at all when I say mistakes) are weak characters to begin with.

I don't see spanking as a mistake if it is done with purpose and not in anger, and whatever impact it has, purposefully done or done wrong, is nominal unless the child is the sort of child who has a weak character and would take any parenting the same way.

But another effect of this sort of argument is that by teaching this to children whose loving parents spank them, we are setting them up for failure, unhappiness, dissatisfaction, distrust of humans, etc. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I think that the anti-spanking campaign either doesn't recognize this reality, or they think that sacrificing the peace of mind of many children today is the price we have to pay to get what they consider the perfect parenting world - good luck with that utopia.

And this is my biggest complaint about anti-spanking fanatics. They, for their own sense of glory, interfere through their preaching with the relationships between loving parents who spank and their children to the severe detriment of the children. If they truely cared about what is best for these children, they'd go about this very differently.

I would also advise people to take every study they see, on either side of the fence, with a grain of salt. Maybe it is because I have lived a longer life than many people on this forum, or because I've seen a lot in those years having lived all around the world and having been exposed to all sorts of situations, personal and environmental, and then having read reports about things I experienced or witnessed first hand where things were being reported as facts that were far from factual, or maybe it is because over the years I've seen sensationalist findings about all sorts of things that resulted in disruptive and possibly even dangerous overreactions and then later saw those findings disproven that I use common sense and good judgment when I read the sorts of sharply focused, no room for error, findings about any method of parenting rather than just swallow the whole thing hook, line, and sinker.

 

[singledad]

PianoLover -

MomoJA is right - you are throwing around words like "abuse", "trauma", "anxiety", "PTSD" etc like they are just words, with no meaning beyond the scientific definitions you have studied.

Well, let me tell you - those words describe very real experiences, lived by real, living, breathing people. They describe a kind of HELL that is far worse than your worst nightmare. To even suggest that the discomfort experienced by a child who is being spanked, not in anger, by a loving parent has ANYTHING I'm common with them, shows that you have NO IDEA what those words really mean. Its like comparing the experiences of someone who struggles to walk for a few days due to a sprained ankle, with the experience of a paraplegic. Try telling a paraplegic "I know how you feel, I sprained my ankle once..." And watch how they react. I promise you, it won't be pretty.

In short - You are invalidating the experiences of child abuse survivors in a way that is very, very offensive.

Beyond that, I've posted about the dangers of this fixation on spanking and physical abuse before. Case in point: (from the Re: Hello thread in general)

I have no knowledge that the children are being beat, and they certainly have more food in their apartment than I do.

I just wasn't sure what abuse technically is anymore. In my life, yes that's abuse, but to the world at large, I just wasn't for sure.

What is abuse? Abuse is the absence of love, safety, security, support, etc. How these things are destroyed is far less important than the average person thinks. There are countless children out there, living in a hell that you can't even begin to imagine, who are unable to get help simply because <U>they don't have bruises</U>. Because, thanks the all the proselytism about spanking being abuse, the general public is starting to believe that abuse = being beaten.

Ever heard the words "well, at least they don't beat the kids"? Does it make you go "oh, well, it's ok then"? Me, if I had a choice between parents who loved me but also spanked, or even - yes - beat me, and parents who never touched me but didn't love me either, I would choose the former, without having to think for even a second.

But popular opinion is making the latter seem much better. Popular opinion being the opinions of influential people and scientists who have no clue what they are talking about.

 

[Mom2all]

No child CONSENTS to be being spanked (although they are statistically more likely to enjoy being spanked as a sexual activity as well as more extreme forms of power play later in life than people who aren't spanked

Gross.
Where do you get this stuff? Was there a survey done on a S&amp;M or Christian site? a lot Christians believe in "spare the rod and spoil the child". Perhaps its a S&amp;M&amp;Religion site?

I must have failed somehow. My spankings as a child never developed into a desire for a swat in the bedroom.

Again.. gross just thinking about how that would manifest.

 

[parentastic]

pstc. I dont think there is going to be a "I win" moment in this thread. Not likely the sides will concede and (sorry) rather naive to believe they would.

If even one silent reader ends up on a spanking thread on a forum, and even one of the information I bring allows them to reconsider and either reduce the intensity, the frequency or the type of punishment and corporal punishment they use, to replace with something less detrimental, then I have achieved my goal. I don't need validation, I do not care about winning over anyone to my "point of view", all I care about is offering my professional position on child care and developmental psychology.
Whether this is then used or not, and by whom, I have no control over that.

What the thread can do is cause people to open their minds, do some research on their own and take a little time to be introspective. Whether we take away something from the thread is completely up to the reader.

This is exactly how I feel, and I think you voiced it a lot better than I did. I don't care about debate. I don't care about winning.
I care about children's safety and secure development, and I care about a society with less violence in it. I do not ask for people to believe in what I write or say, if they can get curious enough to research it on their own, that's already wonderful.

I did it because we were getting a lot of spanking bleed over in other threads and the debate section is just a better place to to have this conversation.

Personally, I believe that difficult topics are especially useful to discuss. The more emotional we all become here, the more it shows how deeply important the topic is. So I am grateful that these threads exists, even if I am deeply sad when it degrades into personal attacks, name calling, and accusations, or when a dozen veterans "gang-up" on me because I am defending an unpleasant position to them.

This being said, bssage, no offense, but I wonder if the reason you started the thread isn't also because you want to deal with the guilt. I might be wrong, and I do not want to presume or assume anything about you, but I have heard a lot about how much guilt I am causing on the forums each time I am advocating for positive parenting. Do you want to reassure yourself that the spanking you did in the past was okay, or are you genuinely interested to discuss whether it is detrimental for a child? I am not sure. Please forgive me for asking.

<U>I have yet to see anyone produce a study that indicates a couple of spanks in a lifetime, year, even a few times throughout a year have been in any way harmful. </U> If you have access to that study, not a report of a study. Please share it.

It's not the first time that you have wrote that request, and it got me thinking a lot - which is why I haven't responded to it earlier.
(Just want to make it clear I wasn't trying to ignore the request or anything, I believe it deserves a thoughtful answer, so I needed to gather my thoughts before I could answer).

I am still reflecting on it, but didn't want to delay further before offering at least the start of an answer. Since I am still thinking about it, allow me to share genuinely with you the process of my thinking here, as I am trying to see how I could start to answer you.

What causes me to pause here is that I do not know how to answer your question, because I do not know what you are exactly expecting. I am experiencing your request as if you are waiting for me to give you this perfect "proof" of a very precise nature, in exactly the way you want it, and that anything short of that specific "perfect" proof is discarded away as non-relevant.
I feel like what you are saying is:
"I will consider spanking to be non-harmful to children when done a few times a year, regardless of anything you can give me, unless you can give me proof it is harmful to children on the long run when it is done at this frequency".

What's interesting to me here is that the opposite question does not seem to interest you. Why aren't you interested at verifying if spanking in low frequency is not harmful? If you can't prove it is harmful, then it must be non-harmful? This is how I am experiencing your claim.

There isn't <U>a single study</U> that can prove spanking not to be harmful on the long run. None! Not a single one, even from the few researcher who are pro-spanking. Considering how harmful we know spanking becomes when it is used frequently, or when it becomes more severe, and the direct link between spanking and abuse that is repeatedly outlined in virtually all studies on this topic, isn't it a crucial question? Isn't much more likely that small doses of something we KNOW is harmful in large dosage be potentially harmful too? The least would be to get definite proof that it is non harmful, before we use it - and in doubt, shouldn't we use something else, just to be on the safe side?

Let me summarize so far, what we have:


<LIST>

• 
  <LI>
• A review of 62 years of various studies on spanking, including hundreds of different research, found 10 different <U>negative</U> associations with spanking. It could only find ONE single positive association, and that is with spanking and immediate compliance. See below for some of these negative associations.</LI>

</LIST>

<LIST>

• 
  <LI>
• Studies after studies have found that there is very thin line between spanking and child abuse, and that the line can become very blurry because people have different definition of what "mild" spanking means or what "not frequent" means, or what "no in anger" means. So at least, we know there is always a risk there.</LI>

</LIST>

<LIST>

• 
  <LI>
• Studies using statistics (quantitative data) rely on parent's self reporting. So of course, we know that spanking us massively under-reported when we try to study the effects: which parents want to report that their children had potential troubles after a spanking? This is one of the multiple reason why it is difficult, if not downright impossible, to get the kind of "definitive" proof you are looking for. It's like measuring "normal" spanking. What is "normal?" This makes it difficult to measure.</LI>

</LIST>

<LIST>

• 
  <LI>
• We know, with absolute certainty, that spanking becomes more harmful on a multitude of short and long term negative effects when the severity or/and the frequency is rising. As it becomes more frequent and/or more severe, the risks do not get mitigated and they become more measurable through scientific process. Even though we do not have proof of effect (using statistical data, see below for qualitative research) for normative spanking, the fact that these practice could be so damaging when it raises in frequency or/and severity should, at least, give us pause.</LI>

</LIST>

<LIST>

• 
  <LI>
• We know 24 countries decided to ban spanking. Of course, one can choose to think they are doing it as a "social trend" and that there is no basis for it. But - again - this should make one pause. Is there something there that, perhaps, one has not seen?</LI>

</LIST>

<LIST>

• 
  <LI>
• We know children are more likely to act aggressively when they are spanked. Again, we do not know exactly how much more aggressive vs how much spanking, but the association is clear. What's nasty is that of course, the more aggressive children become, the more likely they are to misbehave and be spanked, which causes a spiral. Again, that should give one pause and matter for reflection.</LI>

</LIST>

<LIST>

• 
  <LI>
• There is also a very clear association between the likelihood of drug abuse later in life and the spanking a child has received. Again, same as the other: measuring this with "mild" or "normal" spanking is difficult, but the association itself it now clearly established.</LI>

</LIST>

<LIST>

• 
  <LI>
• New research in neurobiology now allows us to scan the brain under stress (using magnetic resonance) and we know much better what is going on in the brain during certain conditions, such as spanking. This falls into qualitative research: it does not use statistics. It's not about what cumulative effect we attempt to measure at the end, X years later, looking at groups of spanked vs non-spanked children. Instead, we now <I>understand the mechanics</I> of what is going in the brain. We know how spanking generates cortisol and adrenaline, how it erode the parent-child attachment bound and causes a shift toward insecure attachment, how it causes the left and right part of the brain to develop defense mechanism and less communicate with one another; how it favors an over-development of the right brain (screams, strong emotions) or an under-development (children are asked not to display their emotions, for fear of punishment). But this kind of "proof" is discarded because it's not that perfect "proof" you are looking for.</LI>

</LIST>

<LIST>

• 
  <LI>
• Recent studies have focused on the child. What is the child point of view in this? We found out that spanking causes certain types of reactions and emotions: children have resentment, anger, rebellion or submissive thoughts, etc. This is now well documented. Whether the children remember it later in life or not, whether the cumulative effect is measurable or not, the punctual effect of spanking on a child's emotional and cognitive processes is now well known.</LI>

</LIST>

There are MANY more things to say. I have hundreds of studies for you, bssage, that I can't share with you here because each PDF is taken from university accounts from paid journals, but if you are truly open to it, I have sources for everything I have written above and I can send you these sources by email.

The key point though is: why is none of the above enough <I>at least</I> to wonder: Hey, wait a second, am I sure that even one single spanking is NOT harmful? Am I 100% sure of this, considering the above?

 

[momtoallkids]

Gross.
Where do you get this stuff? Was there a survey done on a S&amp;M or Christian site? a lot Christians believe in "spare the rod and spoil the child". Perhaps its a S&amp;M&amp;Religion site?

I must have failed somehow. My spankings as a child never developed into a desire for a swat in the bedroom.

Again.. gross just thinking about how that would manifest.

my 10yo stepsons bio mom used to spank him. she stopped when he was 8 because he would go "oo again!!" and he has admitted to it. i was shocked sometimes i wonder that when he reaches maturity if hed feel the same way. they do say that alot of fetishes start durring childhood.

 

[Incogneato]

Calling spanking violent always rubs me the wrong way. The word violence implies malice or evil intentions, and while some parents who truly abuse their kids are indeed spanking violently...I feel that most people here who are pro-spanking are doing it for reasons of concern, care, and a general desire for their children to be protected.

 

[Mom2all]

Calling spanking violent always rubs me the wrong way. The word violence implies malice or evil intentions, and while some parents who truly abuse their kids are indeed spanking violently...I feel that most people here who are pro-spanking are doing it for reasons of concern, care, and a general desire for their children to be protected.

I agree.

 

[parentastic]

Calling spanking violent always rubs me the wrong way. The word violence implies malice or evil intentions

When I use the word "violence", I use it from the point of view of the child. I am not trying to qualify the act from the point of view of the <U>intention</U>. For the record, I am fully aware that parent's intentions aren't malicious and that the desire to do whatever is necessary to <U>protect</U> the child is what drives parents.

But the <I><U>act</U> </I>of spanking is violent. It is a hit, a smack, an act causing pain, a violation of someone's physical integrity, forcefully imposing pain and humiliation. We can argue about whether this act is useful or not, whether it is working or not, and I think that these discussions are useful and there is no question that they come from a true and real desire to do what's best for a child. But the act itself, whether it is nice to say it aloud or not, is a violent act. I am not saying this to be graphic, or to stir people into guilt, or to rub parents the wrong way. I am looking at the act in the most objective way, regardless of its intention. The outcome of spanking has everything to do with how it is <I>perceived</I> by the child, psychologically speaking.

I feel that most people here who are pro-spanking are doing it for reasons of concern, care, and a general desire for their children to be protected.

I wholeheartedly agree with this, and this is also how I think nearly all, if not all of the pro-spanking parent do it.

 

[Incogneato]

When I use the word "violence", I use it from the point of view of the child. I am not trying to qualify the act from the point of view of the <U>intention</U>. For the record, I am fully aware that parent's intentions aren't malicious and that the desire to do whatever is necessary to <U>protect</U> the child is what drives parents.

But the <I><U>act</U> </I>of spanking is violent. It is a hit, a smack, an act causing pain, a violation of someone's physical integrity, forcefully imposing pain and humiliation. We can argue about whether this act is useful or not, whether it is working or not, and I think that these discussions are useful and there is no question that they come from a true and real desire to do what's best for a child. But the act itself, whether it is nice to say it aloud or not, is a violent act. I am not saying this to be graphic, or to stir people into guilt, or to rub parents the wrong way. I am looking at the act in the most objective way, regardless of its intention. The outcome of spanking has everything to do with how it is <I>perceived</I> by the child, psychologically speaking.



I wholeheartedly agree with this, and this is also how I think nearly all, if not all of the pro-spanking parent do it.

I understand the distinction between the act and the intention, but my comments weren't really directed directly at anything you said in particular...but my problem is that the word "violence" in and of itself stirs emotions in people. Either by bringing up past issues where they have truly had an experience with violence (domestic abuse, robbery with assault, etc), and by them associating their own negative feelings of previous violent experiences, it influences their perception of the subject that you just called "violent".

Example from PianoLover:

Even though I did not imply all you are saying I implied, you are right. Spanking is the last hold out of physical abuse, and saying you had it worse does not change the fact that <U>your children could have it even better than what you are giving already them if you don't use violence</U>.

It really shouldn't take much to see that inflicting violence to teach a defenceless child a lesson is an abuse of power, will make them either resent you or turn that resentment inwards and point it at themselves (hate themselves) and also teaches that it's acceptible to use violence to get what you want so long as you are the more powerful party.

You do your children a disservice by using violence on them, you give them a greater liklihood of developing depression, anxiety disorders and showing symptoms of PTSD. That should seem obvious even without all the psychological evidence behind it, of course hitting a child is going to put them in fight or flight mode, and because they are helpless, this will be experienced as a trauma.

Throw aggression out of your tool box, you have everything to gain and nothing to lose, more people than are showing it is possible. This is the least violent time human history, it's just hard to see it because the weapons are more dangerous and the news is on.

I bolded and underlined the important part above...PL is using the words violence and abuse in such a way to try and "stir people into guilt" as you put it.


However in response to your reaction to MomoJA's answer below:

Really?

Wow.
I rest my case.

When you asked the question, "Do you think spanking is violent?".. there was no clarification between the act and the intention.. and I'm sure that her response of "No" was most likely because she felt her or other peoples intentions were good...not that she didn't necessarily think the act was violent. You "resting your case" implies a desire to "win" and "argue" like a legal case would be done in court, both of which you claimed you had no intention of doing.

 

[parentastic]

I understand the distinction between the act and the intention, but my comments weren't really directed directly at anything you said in particular...

Okay, thanks for letting me know this, I appreciate it.

but my problem is that the word "violence" in and of itself stirs emotions in people. Either by bringing up past issues where they have truly had an experience with violence (domestic abuse, robbery with assault, etc), and by them associating their own negative feelings of previous violent experiences, it influences their perception of the subject that you just called "violent".

Yes, this is very true. And since it is not my intention to stir these emotions, I can offer sincere apology to anyone who felt it that way in my own writings. If you have any suggestions regarding how I can discuss this matter while not steering these emotions, I'd be grateful to hear them. You offered one already by showing an example of my question to MomoJA and how I did not give the context of the intention vs the act itself, so I am grateful for this example. I will try to keep this in mind so that, in my future writing, I am taking this into account.

I bolded and underlined the important part above...PL is using the words violence and abuse in such a way to try and "stir people into guilt" as you put it.

I honestly and genuinely don't think PL is consciously trying to stir people into guilt - although I cannot speak for him here, I am not in his head.
I think what happens - at least this is what happens for me - is that when I hear, read or think of spanking, what comes to *me* in my mind, from the memory of being spanked (it only happened a few times, not more than 2 or 3 in my whole life, when I was less than 8 years old, and only with hands, and only on the buttock) it evokes something very traumatic and violent. So the idea of the intent, for me, does not even comes to my mind. It is (to me) completely evident and obvious that it is done by parents with good intent! It is just as obvious and evident (to me) that it is the act that is violent, and so I do not walk on eggshell when I say it.

However in response to your reaction to MomoJA's answer below, When you asked the question, "Do you think spanking is violent?".. there was no clarification between the act and the intention.. and I'm sure that her response of "No" was most likely because she felt her or other peoples intentions were good...not that she didn't necessarily think the act was violent.

I would love to hear MomoJA's answer to this specific point. Although I did not offer a distinction between act and intention, she did not offer that clarification either in her answer, and then proceeded to accuse me of being "simplistic". It's a two way street: her answer is just as simplistic.
To me, the very basis of a discussion regarding spanking is to agree, at least, that the <I>act</I> is a violent act.

You "resting your case" implies a desire to "win" and "argue" like a legal case would be done in court, both of which you claimed you had no intention of doing.

It's a valid point. More of a perfectly human reaction of annoyance at MomoJA's communication style and tendency to use name-calling and personal attack, that made me react this way. It's also a manner of speech that means "I don't see why I should continue a discussion on these basis". Not perfect, but who's going to cast the first stone at me for this?

 

[momtoallkids]

idk. personally i am against spanking. i have found other ways to teach my children to behave properly. i just had a fight with my husband anout it becasue he spanked my step-son. i was pissed. i forget what started the whole thing but my step-son was self punishing by slamming his head into things so his father spanked him to snap him out of it. i do not agree with this. i think it could have been handled better without rasing a hand to him. i didnt talk to him the rest of the day after that. its my personal belief that there is no reason to ever raise your hand to a child