bssage said:
pstc. I dont think there is going to be a "I win" moment in this thread. Not likely the sides will concede and (sorry) rather naive to believe they would.
If even one silent reader ends up on a spanking thread on a forum, and even one of the information I bring allows them to reconsider and either reduce the intensity, the frequency or the type of punishment and corporal punishment they use, to replace with something less detrimental, then I have achieved my goal. I don't need validation, I do not care about winning over anyone to my "point of view", all I care about is offering my professional position on child care and developmental psychology.
Whether this is then used or not, and by whom, I have no control over that.
bssage said:
What the thread can do is cause people to open their minds, do some research on their own and take a little time to be introspective. Whether we take away something from the thread is completely up to the reader.
This is exactly how I feel, and I think you voiced it a lot better than I did.
I don't care about debate. I don't care about winning.
I care about children's safety and secure development, and I care about a society with less violence in it. I do not ask for people to believe in what I write or say, if they can get curious enough to research it on their own, that's already wonderful.
bssage said:
I did it because we were getting a lot of spanking bleed over in other threads and the debate section is just a better place to to have this conversation.
Personally, I believe that difficult topics are especially useful to discuss. The more emotional we all become here, the more it shows how deeply important the topic is. So I am grateful that these threads exists, even if I am deeply sad when it degrades into personal attacks, name calling, and accusations, or when a dozen veterans "gang-up" on me because I am defending an unpleasant position to them.
This being said, bssage, no offense, but I wonder if the reason you started the thread isn't also because you want to deal with the guilt. I might be wrong, and I do not want to presume or assume anything about you, but I have heard a lot about how much guilt I am causing on the forums each time I am advocating for positive parenting. Do you want to reassure yourself that the spanking you did in the past was okay, or are you genuinely interested to discuss whether it is detrimental for a child? I am not sure. Please forgive me for asking.
bssage said:
<U>I have yet to see anyone produce a study that indicates a couple of spanks in a lifetime, year, even a few times throughout a year have been in any way harmful. </U> If you have access to that study, not a report of a study. Please share it.
It's not the first time that you have wrote that request, and it got me thinking a lot - which is why I haven't responded to it earlier.
(Just want to make it clear I wasn't trying to ignore the request or anything, I believe it deserves a thoughtful answer, so I needed to gather my thoughts before I could answer).
I am still reflecting on it, but didn't want to delay further before offering at least the start of an answer. Since I am still thinking about it, allow me to share genuinely with you the process of my thinking here, as I am trying to see how I could start to answer you.
What causes me to pause here is that I do not know how to answer your question, because I do not know what you are exactly expecting. I am experiencing your request as if you are waiting for me to give you this perfect "proof" of a very precise nature, in exactly the way you want it, and that anything short of that specific "perfect" proof is discarded away as non-relevant.
I feel like what you are saying is:
"I will consider spanking to be non-harmful to children when done a few times a year, regardless of anything you can give me, unless you can give me proof it is harmful to children on the long run when it is done at this frequency".
What's interesting to me here is that
the opposite question does not seem to interest you. Why aren't you interested at verifying if spanking in low frequency is not harmful? If you can't prove it is harmful, then it must be non-harmful? This is how I am experiencing your claim.
There isn't <U>
a single study</U> that can prove spanking not to be harmful on the long run. None! Not a single one, even from the few researcher who are pro-spanking. Considering how harmful we know spanking becomes when it is used frequently, or when it becomes more severe, and the direct link between spanking and abuse that is repeatedly outlined in virtually all studies on this topic, isn't it a crucial question? Isn't much more likely that small doses of something we KNOW is harmful in large dosage be potentially harmful too? The least would be to get definite proof that it is non harmful, before we use it - and in doubt, shouldn't we use something else, just to be on the safe side?
Let me summarize so far, what we have:
<LIST>
<LI>
- A review of 62 years of various studies on spanking, including hundreds of different research, found 10 different <U>negative</U> associations with spanking. It could only find ONE single positive association, and that is with spanking and immediate compliance. See below for some of these negative associations.</LI>
</LIST>
<LIST>
<LI>
- Studies after studies have found that there is very thin line between spanking and child abuse, and that the line can become very blurry because people have different definition of what "mild" spanking means or what "not frequent" means, or what "no in anger" means. So at least, we know there is always a risk there.</LI>
</LIST>
<LIST>
<LI>
- Studies using statistics (quantitative data) rely on parent's self reporting. So of course, we know that spanking us massively under-reported when we try to study the effects: which parents want to report that their children had potential troubles after a spanking? This is one of the multiple reason why it is difficult, if not downright impossible, to get the kind of "definitive" proof you are looking for. It's like measuring "normal" spanking. What is "normal?" This makes it difficult to measure.</LI>
</LIST>
<LIST>
<LI>
- We know, with absolute certainty, that spanking becomes more harmful on a multitude of short and long term negative effects when the severity or/and the frequency is rising. As it becomes more frequent and/or more severe, the risks do not get mitigated and they become more measurable through scientific process. Even though we do not have proof of effect (using statistical data, see below for qualitative research) for normative spanking, the fact that these practice could be so damaging when it raises in frequency or/and severity should, at least, give us pause.</LI>
</LIST>
<LIST>
<LI>
- We know 24 countries decided to ban spanking. Of course, one can choose to think they are doing it as a "social trend" and that there is no basis for it. But - again - this should make one pause. Is there something there that, perhaps, one has not seen?</LI>
</LIST>
<LIST>
<LI>
- We know children are more likely to act aggressively when they are spanked. Again, we do not know exactly how much more aggressive vs how much spanking, but the association is clear. What's nasty is that of course, the more aggressive children become, the more likely they are to misbehave and be spanked, which causes a spiral. Again, that should give one pause and matter for reflection.</LI>
</LIST>
<LIST>
<LI>
- There is also a very clear association between the likelihood of drug abuse later in life and the spanking a child has received. Again, same as the other: measuring this with "mild" or "normal" spanking is difficult, but the association itself it now clearly established.</LI>
</LIST>
<LIST>
<LI>
- New research in neurobiology now allows us to scan the brain under stress (using magnetic resonance) and we know much better what is going on in the brain during certain conditions, such as spanking. This falls into qualitative research: it does not use statistics. It's not about what cumulative effect we attempt to measure at the end, X years later, looking at groups of spanked vs non-spanked children. Instead, we now <I>understand the mechanics</I> of what is going in the brain. We know how spanking generates cortisol and adrenaline, how it erode the parent-child attachment bound and causes a shift toward insecure attachment, how it causes the left and right part of the brain to develop defense mechanism and less communicate with one another; how it favors an over-development of the right brain (screams, strong emotions) or an under-development (children are asked not to display their emotions, for fear of punishment). But this kind of "proof" is discarded because it's not that perfect "proof" you are looking for.</LI>
</LIST>
<LIST>
<LI>
- Recent studies have focused on the child. What is the child point of view in this? We found out that spanking causes certain types of reactions and emotions: children have resentment, anger, rebellion or submissive thoughts, etc. This is now well documented. Whether the children remember it later in life or not, whether the cumulative effect is measurable or not, the punctual effect of spanking on a child's emotional and cognitive processes is now well known.</LI>
</LIST>
There are MANY more things to say. I have hundreds of studies for you, bssage, that I can't share with you here because each PDF is taken from university accounts from paid journals, but if you are truly open to it, I have sources for everything I have written above and I can send you these sources by email.
The key point though is: why is none of the above enough <I>
at least</I> to wonder: Hey, wait a second,
am I sure that even one single spanking is NOT harmful? Am I 100% sure of this, considering the above?