SPANKING revisited...

[parentastic]

First please understand that this was not meant as an attack. I addressed it to youbecause you asked, but then I tried to accurately use "we" whenever I thought I was making a global suggestion all of us would bear well to be reminded of.

no worries, IADad, it was genuinely asked and, I believe, genuinely given. I do not perceive this as an attack at all, and I appreciate the discussion and feedback.

I'm not going to dig through to find a case and point, but I believe posts have been made where someone's words are take and then used to pigeon hole them.

Sadly, this happens quite often, especially when emotions are high.
And I am sure I am also guilty of this in some instance, and if I have done so, then I hope whoever was on the receiving end will know I am sorry of it. I wish I could get the same curtsey from those who used this tactic here.

I realize the importance of writing carefully, esepcially on such hot topics, but I think we're all better served when we try to understand what the other mean, rather than trying to catch them at a misstep.

I wholeheartedly agree.

We can't all be Gov Romney, you know...(sorry, little political joke added there...)

Surely, <U>we</U> can accept that someone else forming an opinion is not necessarily an idiot because they happen to disagree or have come to a different conclusion than me.

[/QUOTE]
You are right, you were using the "we" you are mentioning above, and I took it personally as if it was only directed at me. My apologies for this.
I want to state for the record that I have never implied or said that anyone here who does not agree with what I write is an idiot.

There's been a lot of finger pointing, and frankly I don't like being characterist as part of a group of veteran's ganging up on you. I've tried to write clearly, and respond to you directly when I have a comment directly for you and generally when I have a general comment.

And I appreciate that you are not taking that stance. The fact is, however, that PL got -200 reputation now despite having 60+ gentle, loving and helping posts in this forum and several months of contributions; I myself received negative rep in this thread despite the unwritten nettiquette that negative rep should be kept for trolls. Hence the feeling of the ganging up.
For the record, I was not thinking of you when I wrote that.

My point is that we aren't serving the purpose of the discussion if we are debating the debate.

I wholeheartedly agree. But on the flip side, as I was pointing out in my last response above to singledad, there is a limit to what can be debated without looking at the <I>process</I> of the debate. There has to be a minimal respect for all participants, even when they say things that are difficult to read or to accept, for debate to happen, otherwise it's not a debate anymore, it's a witch haunt. When it is explicitly said that my entire professional field is and will always be wrong regardless of what I say (not to mention "sick"), it tends to end the debate. As I said, it does not leaves me many options here, or much voice for that matter.

Thank you for your post, IADad. I appreciate its respect and openness.

 

[bssage]

I think Psychologist, psychiatrist, are just kinda a sick group.

Povlav's dog. Really? you have to shunt the dogs saliva glands to see if it drools when you feed it. Really??

My bad, I over generalized for the sake of a little humor. I dont think the Entire (or even most) of the group is sick or bad.

Some of the studies I have read are ethically questionable at best. But that is not the majority or even a large minority. Its something I kinda study informally myself. Very interesting stuff.

I should have not called the profession sick. I apologize.

 

[parentastic]

I should have not called the profession sick. I apologize.

Thank you.

 

[singledad]

I am not here to stir animosity, the only thing I came here to do was try and help children and parents develop better relationships so that the next generation may be more psychologically healthy than the generation before. I have had excellent results and reports of the worthiness of the methods which I suggest in other groups, that I am encouraged by. I would rather spend my time where I can make a real difference, than where minds are set for the time being.

Perhaps, if you took the time to understand the other viewpoint, and suggested improvements, instead of simply condemning what parents do, people would have reacted differently. Unfortunately, your posts didn't read like advice. All I read was judgement, and accusations that some members are abusing their children.

You seemed to have read straight over all the explanations about how spanking does NOT occur INSTEAD of teaching, guiding, loving, etc. You seem stuck on the idea that spanking is always sudden and unexpected, is always done randomly, and in anger. If you haven't been able to grasp how wrong this assumption is after 10 pages, I won't waste my time trying to explain again.

I also do not mean to equalise spanking to <U>other</U> forms of abuse that are more severe, I only acknowledge the fact that using violence to solve problems is <U>inherently abusive.</U>

Case in point. There you go again, accusing loving parents of abusing their children. It is clear to me that you have no idea of the dynamics of abuse. You are simply going off formal definitions of abuse, formulated by scientists who have never been abused themselves, and thus can not ever fully understand it. I hope you realize how fortunate you are.

Do yourself a favour, and read the first paragraph of parentastic's post below yours. Then learn from him if you can open your mind far enough.

"they don't have bruises."

they do, just ones which don't show.

Wow, congratulations. You definitely hold the record for the furthest anyone has ever taken my words out of context. Did the second part of my post really go THAT far over your head, or did you just decide that it would be a good idea to make it look like I wrote something that is just about as far as can be from what I really wrote? Or is my English really that bad?

Try reading it again:

What is abuse? <U>Abuse is the absence of love, safety, security, support, etc</U>. How these things are destroyed is far less important than the average person thinks. There are countless children out there, <U>living in a hell that you can't even begin to imagine, who are unable to get help simply because they don't have bruises</U>. Because, thanks the all the proselytism about spanking being abuse, <U>the general public is starting to believe that abuse = being beaten</U>.

 

[singledad]

I think it's really important, IMO, to acknowledge that normative spanking is not in the same category, both by respect for the spanking parents who love their children and are genuinely doing what they think is best, and by respect for the people who had to survive deep traumas such as these ones.

Thank you. However much I might disagree with you at times, at least you make an effort to be respectful, and you seem to have more understanding of the words you use, and how they may affect others, than some others, who shall remain nameless for now . I appreciate that.

It does not leave me with much choice, and I am all ears if you'd like to offer more advices. So far, I can:
...

All I can replay to this, is to ask you if you've noticed how, when you offer advice about how to better handle situation, people are far more receptive than when you tell them that what they do is wrong. You know that I agree with you about there being better ways to handle most situations where some parents would spank. I also don't think that there are any parents (at least on this board) who enjoy spanking. Parents simply don't appreciate having their parenting styles condemned in the way spanking often is, or to even be accused of abused. (Not saying you've done that in so many words, but it is a common angle, often used in debates like these)

You do have value to add - you can teach people better methods. But when people perceive that they are being judged, they will become defensive. And when I perceive that some people, who I respect very much, are being judged unfairly, I will come to their defense. Also understand that parents know their children better than you do. You advice, though good, may not always be the be-all and end-all for all situations.

The fact is, however, that PL got -200 reputation now despite having 60+ gentle, loving and helping posts in this forum and several months of contributions;

Sorry, but I think he deserved that. There was nothing gentle about the way he accused loving parents of abusing their children. There was nothing helpful about the way he lumped loving parents like IADad and bssage into the same category as my father. I don't know who down-rep'ed him, but honestly - if someone else hadn't already done it, I would have.

About the psychiatric profession -
I, myself, have a love-hate relationship with them. There are a few good professionals, with good intentions, and the insight necessary to work in that profession. They can be very helpful. In my experience, however, far too many psychiatrists have only book knowledge and no real understanding, and use fancy theories and terminology to hide the fact they really don't have a clue. Add to that how so many seem to all jump on the bandwagon of whatever the latest "fashionable" theory or disorder is, while some of the most serious and most prevalent disorders remain largely misunderstood, simply because almost no effort is put into understanding it. And then there are those who are pushing a personal agenda...

No, the entire profession is not sick, but unfortunately there are too many who continuously undermine the credibility of the rest. As with any field of study, I suppose. Geology or astronomy simply doesn't invoke the same kind of emotional response from people, which is probably why they haven't been accused of this.

 

[IADad]

Just a couple of comments to make.

First, I'm glad we're all coming around to some additional mutual respect here. Maybe there's a lesson we've learned that we can all carry forward. I'll try. I know it's fun to feel like you've won when you've made your point. I, for one, know I've been guilty of not thinking past the next post. While we're talking about respting our children and instilling respectful behaviors in them, I think this shows we can do better as adults, when we try.

Second, I want to say that this discussion, and others, have made me more aware of how I react. It's tough to try to always react "the right" way. We have instincts and we use them. I'm becoming more and more aware and I think I'm changing some of my patterns of behavior, specifically with raising my voice, which is not as necessary as my reactions have deomstarted in the past. It's funny, because I'm the last person to ever raise my voice with another adult. I have to think about why I do it with my kids.

This reminds me - I think I'll make a new thread about an experience the other day. Maybe see how others might have handled it.

 

[ElliottCarasDad]

Like everyone else on the planet, (sorry to the Ph.D's or wanna B-Ph.D's but I cant cite scientific studies for that fact) I cant think of any situation in my life where someone convinced me Im wrong in my beliefs. Especially based on results of people who acknowledge that they disagree with me from the start!
Also, I've yet to see any data or personal experience from PF members with their children that suggests my experience is any different!

EDIT:de-cypher that! mf'ers!

 

[parentastic]

If anyone is interested, here is the official research paper recently published in the news about spanking:
Physical punishment of children: lessons from 20 years of research
Those of you who are curious will be able to read the text first hand, see each and every source included, and make up your mind about the methodology and what it might mean - straight from it, rather than from what the press might say about it.

I like this paragraph, which summarizes IMO really well how we can look at many contradictory studies one by one, but how the synthesis emerging from decades of research is very clear:

Although some studies have found no relation between physical punishment and negative outcomes, (35) and others have
found the relation to be moderated by other factors, (12) <U>no study</U> has found physical punishment to have a long-term positive effect, and most studies have found negative effects. (17)

 

[parentastic]

Thank you. However much I might disagree with you at times, at least you make an effort to be respectful, and you seem to have more understanding of the words you use, and how they may affect others, than some others, who shall remain nameless for now . I appreciate that.

And I appreciate you saying it!

About the psychiatric profession -
I, myself, have a love-hate relationship with them.

I know exactly what you mean
IN fact, I think it a way it's what gets to me in these debates sometimes - that every psychology-related profession and professionals are sometimes all put together in a big same bag.
Family counseling, for instance, is not the same from child-care education, which is different from psychologist, which is different from psychiatrist, which is different from being an educator or a teacher, or a medical doctor or a pediatrician... and then even in each profession, you have different philosophies. In psychology alone there are (if I am not mistaken) 7 completely different ways to see things (cognitive, behavioral, humanist, etc...) and each view will be helpful or not depending on which person and for what.
There are a few good professionals, with good intentions, and the insight necessary to work in that profession. They can be very helpful. In my experience, however, far too many psychiatrists have only book knowledge and no real understanding, and use fancy theories and terminology to hide the fact they really don't have a clue. Add to that how so many seem to all jump on the bandwagon of whatever the latest "fashionable" theory or disorder is, while some of the most serious and most prevalent disorders remain largely misunderstood, simply because almost no effort is put into understanding it. And then there are those who are pushing a personal agenda...

Thanks for your post, it was interesting.

 

[bssage]

More of the same stuff. Read it all nothing new. All about children spanked regularly. Thanks for making my point again.

 

[AmynKayla]

Truthfully, I'd really prefer not to spank. I was spanked as an exclusive form of discipline as a child and often I think it bordered the line of abuse. Having said that, I have spanked Kayla twice. Once just today and once a few months ago. Both were for essentially the same thing: discipline reports. She knows with 100% accuracy that is the consequence when she brings home a discipline report from school. These are not sent home for minor misdemeaners, but rather serious offenses. The third time one is sent home, the child is suspended for a week or more. Today Kayla swore at both her teacher and her principal. The time before, she kicked one of her classmates and lied to her teacher saying it was another student. Today she asked me if she was going to get a spanking and I told her honestly, that yes she was as her behaviour was totally unacceptable. I know that she will not perform that behaviour again and after she's spanked, she writes out a completion to the sentence "I could have better dealt with things by ____." I dont buy the reasoning that it teaches her to use physical force to solve problems. She understands that its a result of her behaviour and is a consequence to her behaviour. Today, she was spanked and then also sat and wrote an appology to both her teacher and her principal. After she finished that, she came up to me and asked if she could tell me something. I told her "of course" and she said "I'm sorry that I said those bad words and made you disappointed at me". When I was a kid, it was a belt or a wooden spoon. For Kayla, its my hand. She knows and understands exactly WHY she's been spanked, where when I was young lord only knows whether it was something I even understood to be inappropriate. It is reserved for things that I know she knows better and is not exclusive and is not the only means of discipline, even when she's been spanked there is a follow up. It is simply and emphasis that she's way crossed a line. I dont like it, but it does get the point across to her and its not something I'd rely on other than in addition to some more minor punishment that doesn't fit the crime. Amy

 

[Mom2all]

I'm not one of the people who oppose spanking. I spanked when they were very young and what they did was dangerous and wanted them to associate the danger with something really bad. However, I think in Kayla's case I wouldn't. It sounds like she's had enough of a bad go of it in her young life. She has so much going on in her little world. Mom is gone. She has to hide that she wets her pants. I know that her life is upside down right now. Be patient. I know its hard. If you look at why she does what she does instead of just what was done... you might be able to start changing the behavior.

 

[AmynKayla]

I'm not one of the people who oppose spanking. I spanked when they were very young and what they did was dangerous and wanted them to associate the danger with something really bad. However, I think in Kayla's case I wouldn't. It sounds like she's had enough of a bad go of it in her young life. She has so much going on in her little world. Mom is gone. She has to hide that she wets her pants. I know that her life is upside down right now. Be patient. I know its hard. If you look at why she does what she does instead of just what was done... you might be able to start changing the behavior.

I definitely see your point. She's not had an easy go. I do want to be clear that the first time I spanked her was about 5 mths ago, and then this afternoon. I dont spank hard, but it is hard enough that she gets the point. I guess in my arsenol, I dont feel that I've got anything else that fits the bill. She knows that telling her teacher, and then her principal to "F off" and calling her teacher a "B****" is completely not acceptable, as does she know that kicking another child hard enough to cause a bruise is also completely unacceptable. I dont deny that her world is a bit upside down but I also dont see that as an excuse for such poor behaviour. I do know why she swore at her principal and her teacher today. It was a diversion technique of sorts, but that doesn't make it acceptable. I will admit though that I was at a loss of what to do or say in reference to her behaviour and without that particular tool, I'm at a loss to know how I should have handled it in either case. Reasoning with her is fine, but she knew the inappropriateness of her behaviour. Appologizing, while appropriate is not punishing her for the behaviour but rather is having her do the right thing after such an atrocious display. For me, playing the spanking card is a means of getting through to her the seriousness of the situation. Perhaps there is a better way, but I've just not found it. Truthfully, I am trying very very hard to be patient with her and to work though a lot of the baggage issues she has. I'm not sure "hard" describes it. I feel sometimes like I'm going insane and I dont know what to do. Amy

 

[Mom2all]

Please don't think for a minute I'm criticizing you. I'm not. I can't imagine being in your shoes. Not having your own child but raising another that has serious problems.. it has to be very difficult. I'm not judging anything you've done. I'm just saying that for me, I'd try to back up and see why she is doing what she is and then maybe you can try to attack that problem to prevent it from causing that behavior again. Like knowing she did those thing to avoid being found out at school, telling her teachers about it, packing her extra clothes, giving her some choices on how to deal with it next time.. might prevent another out burst. That was a great step for you. Maybe you could also talk with the teacher about a silent way for Kayla to tell her she needs to call you or go change clothes. Maybe a code word she can use that she and the teacher will know that other kids won't understand so she can change and avoid the whole thing turning nasty.

For dirty words I gave mine dirty jobs. For instance... potty mouth meant potty duty and they'd have to scrub the toilet. Or doggie duty and they found their selves raking poop out of the yard. A 15 minute punishment.. and gross.. often makes a longer lasting impression.

 

[bssage]

IMHO Amy

Sounds like an appropriate reasoned spank. Sure there are half a dozen ways it could have been handled. For me it would have been a spank or soap.

At the end of the day its about results and how you feel it was handled. If you are OK with it and think it was "value added" Then IMHO it was OK.

 

[AmynKayla]

Please don't think for a minute I'm criticizing you. I'm not.

Oh gosh no! I dont think that at all. I just wanted to be clear about it and honestly, I'd probably do it the same way again. There were certainly other factors at play and I do understand what she was trying to do, but that IMO doesn't change the fact that the behavioiur she displalyed is beyond not okay. She could have even asked if she could have called me and that would have diverted things as well in a much more reasonable fashion. But I do understand what you are saying and really do agree with what you've said. As for today, well that's for another post (despite the fact that I didnt spank her, I am going crazy). Amy

 

[PennQuaker09]

I don't spank my kids. I just feel like it creates more of an issue later in life.

 

[nwcrazy]

I've spanked my daughter a total of 3 times. The last time was 2 years ago. The reality is that spanking is hitting. We can sugar coat it by calling it spanking; but, it is technically hitting.

Anyway, after the last spanking, I promised my daughter that I would never do it again. And I haven't...
I've found talking to my daughter to be much more powerful and effective. I've learned to put things in context for her. To explain and show her "why" she should follow my instructions. And not just tell her to do as I say. Sometimes, I have to repeat it many times, but that's fine with me.

My parents never spanked me or my brother. It wasn't necessary. They taught us by talking to us since day 1. And it worked. We've never stolen anything, never got into trouble, got good grades, don't drink, don't smoke, never tried drugs (not even "weed").

I slipped up 2 years ago, but I'm back on track .

Please note that I'm not saying parents who spank their kids are bad parents. In fact, many parents who spank their kids are fantastic parents. I'm just saying going spankless works for us.

 

[tadamsmar]

Deleted

 

[katencam]

I don't spank Camden because I do not think it really works as discipline for him. Then again he is a lot like his mom, and I remember telling my mom at one time "can't you just spank me instead of talking to me"...the last time I gave that suggestion however, when I was young a spanking to me meant my hiney was going to hurt for a while but it would be over and done with and I would be back outside (probably deserving a another spanking!!!).

I have spanked his bottom before, with clothes and a hand...no weapons! And while I believe I got my point across by the look on his face I think it was more out of fear then understanding which I did not feel comfortable with.

Now my sister started out spanking for discipline with my niece who is also 4, and she is a very good little girl and rarely has to be told twice....

Is there a correlation? I have no clue. BUT I do think discipline depends on the child and their personality.