To be or not to be submissive...

[gr8mom]

yep, it was about a movie we were watching that said the husband had raped the wife. I don't think he ever did that to my mom, at least I hope not.

 

[Teresa]

I saw this topic on another thread and thought it deserved a thread of it's own. First what does it mean for a wive to be submissive to her husband? Second do you believe in it? I was raised this way but find it very unfair to the woman to have to go along with every decision the man makes even if she doesn't agree with it. I also think that our Savior treated women equally to men. There are no instances in the bible that I can recall that state any differently. If we were meant to be mindless servants then why did he give us independant thought? I understand that Eve brought down submissiveness on womankind when she ate the forbidden fruit but didn't our Savior die for everyones sins, even womens?

I think anyone who has seen me post here for any length of time knows that I have far from mindless. LOL That being said, I have been a wife who is submitted to the will of God for nearly five years now. That means that, in our family, DH is the head of the household, and I am the keeper of the home and family. When we have a major decision to make, we discuss it with each other, we pray about it, and then, IF we don't agree, which almost never happens, DH is the one to make the final decision.

I do most of the cooking (DH cooks on the weekends because he loves to cook), I do all the cleaning and the laundry and the dishwashing, I take care of the children. I even mow the lawn and shovel the snow...but to be honest, that's because I'm younger than DH and I don't want him out there doing those things!! DH works ten hour days, takes care of the car, does repairs around the house, tends the vegetable garden, etc. We're pretty old-fashioned and traditional with our roles.

Once they are in school then it is not only healthy for you to get out of the house to be with other adults, but the extra money doesn't hurt either.

I have plenty of time to get out and be with other adults, if I choose to do so, and yet still be here whenever the children need me. And we construct our lifestyle so that we can live comfortably on just the one income. Things are not our priority, the family is.

In addition to and aside from religeous reasons, there are many people that choose a submissive/dominant lifestyle. I think it really does come down to personal choice and how a person feels more comfortable living their lives.

And that lifestyle is totally different from the religious idea of submitting to the will of God, which is what causes so much confusion and gives the idea of "submission" a bad rap.

As for the family paying for the husband's actions now, yes, that's true. However, this world is but temporary. There is going to be heartache and struggles. However, I will not pay for it when I am gone. The man will...he will answer for his actions. The only thing I will answer to is if I did or did not follow my husband as I was instructed to do, per the Bible.

Exactly!!!

Since when are divorce and adultery all a woman's fault?

No, it's not all a woman's fault...it's SIN, and straying from the will of God.

This whole submissive thing rubs me the wrong way. I do all the "women" chores because I choose to. My husband couldn't make me do anything. If he starts to take all I do for granted I go on strike. He doesn't have to ask for anything. I anticipate his needs. I don't think any woman should be made to feel that if they dont do the "woman" stuff their a bad person. Women can do anthing. Should they? That's something completely different and personal to each.

I choose to live the way God wants, my husband doesn't MAKE me do it. We are both living under the will of God. We do what God wants us to do, not what people think we should do. We trust in Him to lead us in the right direction.

 

[Amber]

So physical abuse or rape wouldn't be grounds for divorce? Beliefs such as this make me :huh:

I know I'm setting myself up, but technically, no on the physical abuse issue. The rape, yes. And that is because it teaches if you so much as look with lust in your heart, you've committed adultery. So, one must lust before they can rape.

The physical abuse, I'm almost positive no, but I'll do some studying and reasearch on it. Although, I must admit, I'd have to sin and leave. I've done it before.

 

[Amber]

Amber, do you know many highly successful women such as female surgeons or executives? Do you really think they operate or lead businesses more by intuition than logic?

I'm not implying that women have no logic whatsoever. I know many, many highly intelligent women who are just as capable as leading a major company as any man, if not better, than them. Just merely stating that we as women tend to lead more with their emotions and stuff.

 

[meow_173]

Wow, the first signs of physical abuse i would be gone so fast. And not for my sake, but if a man can raise a hand to his wife, whose to say they wont raise a hand to my child

 

[Amber]

So, would someone of the "submissive" status, be willing to share a basic definition of what the modern day submissive religious woman actually IS and what they are actually required to be submissive about? For example, if a woman didn't believe in spanking her kids, and the husband did and told her to, does she have to?

This is my definition, how I live. My husband works. I stay at home (although I am currently looking to get back to work out of sheer boredom) and I will be starting back to college to finish my degree in August. I am the one who cleans the house, with the exception of the kids cleaning their rooms and picking up after themselves. I prepare all the meals. I am in charge of the children, unless I have a problem, then my husband steps in.

I am the one who pays the bills and decides what we can/cannot have. However, if I decide we need, say, a new washer and my husband says "no, let's wait a month", then I wait a month.

As far as any issues that go against morality and the law. God's law always takes precedence.

 

[Amber]

Wow, the first signs of physical abuse i would be gone so fast. And not for my sake, but if a man can raise a hand to his wife, whose to say they wont raise a hand to my child

Exactly. So, I do have a problem with that. But like I said, I'm not 100% sure, but I'll do some looking, let you know what Baptists believe on this issue.

 

[meow_173]

Exactly. So, I do have a problem with that. But like I said, I'm not 100% sure, but I'll do some looking, let you know what Baptists believe on this issue.

See now this is one of the exact things that i do not understand about religion. There are so many that refuse women an annulment or divorce, it is up to the man. Yet if a women is being abused it doesn't matter....:angry:

 

[hwnorth]

And that lifestyle is totally different from the religious idea of submitting to the will of God, which is what causes so much confusion and gives the idea of "submission" a bad rap.

I have to disagree here. Lack of knowledge of D/s lifestyle, and lack of tolerance of religion give it a bad rap.

A woman or man can be submissive in a D/s relationship, and it is not of anyones will, nor religion. It is a choice the submissive person makes to give themselves to their Dominant partner and given as such as a gift.

In a religious aspect, you are doing it due to your own translation of what you consider to be your path to follow. You are not submitting to another human, nor a partner, you are submitting to a mythical figure that you feel has set forth the rules to which you should follow. Which yes, is still a choice, but in a religious aspect you are doing it as this is what you believe you are to do.

The act of female submission in religion is written from the days when a woman was owned property of the man, and the man had full control over every aspect of her life, including allowing others to use her for sexual service.

So how far do you REALLY follow your religion ?

 

[musicmom]

When my dh is here he needs to pull his weight. I do everything because I am in that situtation. Being "submissive" has never come up in our relationship. I think my husband would laugh his butt off if someone even mentioned me being submissive. I do what I do because I enjoy it or I like it done my way.
He can do his own stuff all by himself, he's a big boy. My children are learning to be self sufficient as well.
I don't think I'm submissive to anything. Woman should learn to be more independant and not live their lives around their men because as soon as a husband leaves the woman is there all alone crying her eyes out and helpless. I don't get it.
I also take into account the bible was 2000 years ago and times have SO changed.

 

[gr8mom]

I can't find it now but somewhere someone put a post that said she didn't worry about her husband making decisions which would be bad for the family or affect them in a bad way because he would be the one to answer for it on judgement day. I myself think this is a cop out. If you're being submissive just so you don't have to take responsibility for things I think it's putting too heavy a burden on your husband. IMHO A wife should be her husbands equal so that she can be his friend when he needs her. She can help him in making tough decisions and he can know that even if he screws up she'll be right beside him to help him through it.

 

[Ari2]

I'm not implying that women have no logic whatsoever. I know many, many highly intelligent women who are just as capable as leading a major company as any man, if not better, than them. Just merely stating that we as women tend to lead more with their emotions and stuff.

That's where training, education, and experience come in. No one - male or female - will make it through law school, med school, or an MBA program by leading more with their emotions than with facts and logic. And no one - male or female - is going to make it to partner at a law firm or finish a medical residency or get through the hierarchy of a corporation without being able to keep their emotions in check and lead with their knowledge. None of these systems are forgiving nor do they care overly much about emotions. They want results and exceptional performance from their high-level employees. And if a woman truly needed a man's logic to rein her in, as you suggested earlier, she would not survive professionally.

 

[hwnorth]

I saw this topic on another thread and thought it deserved a thread of it's own. First what does it mean for a wive to be submissive to her husband? Second do you believe in it? I was raised this way but find it very unfair to the woman to have to go along with every decision the man makes even if she doesn't agree with it. I also think that our Savior treated women equally to men. There are no instances in the bible that I can recall that state any differently. If we were meant to be mindless servants then why did he give us independant thought? I understand that Eve brought down submissiveness on womankind when she ate the forbidden fruit but didn't our Savior die for everyones sins, even womens?

If I can ..
You say that your Saviour treated women as equal, but the old testament clearly states that women were PROPERTY of men. Men were even abler to let others use their women for sex, and the women had no say in the matter. Women did as they were told... plain and simply and were basic servants.

This is where it gets confusing for me .. when the laws of the old testament and the laws of the new testament are combined and everyone interprets them different... yet Im told that the Christian laws are so clear.

So if you go by the New Testament... then why... and why not the old testament.. and if the new testament is the RIGHT one to go by, then what was the reasoning for the old testament.

 

[Teresa]

The act of female submission in religion is written from the days when a woman was owned property of the man, and the man had full control over every aspect of her life, including allowing others to use her for sexual service.

So how far do you REALLY follow your religion ?

Biblical submission is for men as well as women, which is what a lot of people miss. We are BOTH submitted to the will of God, and we are His children, not His property. It has nothing to do with the worldview, then or now, as He also commands us to be "in the world, but not OF the world." Our sexual favors are only for one another, which is His will as well as ours. Since God commands against adultery, for my husband to do as you say would be going against the will of God, and I would be right to refuse to follow his direction at that point.

So how much do you REALLY know about my religion? @@

So if you go by the New Testament... then why... and why not the old testament.. and if the new testament is the RIGHT one to go by, then what was the reasoning for the old testament.

Never mind, you just answered my question....and I'm not going to try to teach a course in Christianity on this thread. If someone else wants to take it on, more power to them. Let's just say, short version, that the Old Testament is Jewish law, and the New Testament is Christian teachings.

 

[Amber]

'All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.'
II Tim. 3:16,17

OT is Jewish law. However, are we to scratch it all out since we're living under "new law"? No. Are we to live by it word for word like the New Testament? No. But it was left in there for us to learn from and to grow from. And if you'll notice, anything in the OT that was meant for us to keep, it was also included in the NT.

 

[Amber]

I can't find it now but somewhere someone put a post that said she didn't worry about her husband making decisions which would be bad for the family or affect them in a bad way because he would be the one to answer for it on judgement day. I myself think this is a cop out. If you're being submissive just so you don't have to take responsibility for things I think it's putting too heavy a burden on your husband.

I said it. And it's not a cop out. It's just like my children. If I tell them I don't think such and such is a good idea, and they don't head my warning, then it is on them. Y'all have this submission idea completely wrong. We don't sit around like mindless morons never inputting our advice to our husbands. We totally do. And if we are joined together in marriage, and submissive to God, then our opinions and our actions and our judgements WILL line up with each other. When they don't, I voice my opinion. If my husband fails to heed it, then he answers for that.

 

[hwnorth]

Biblical submission is for men as well as women, which is what a lot of people miss. We are BOTH submitted to the will of God, and we are His children, not His property. It has nothing to do with the worldview, then or now, as He also commands us to be "in the world, but not OF the world." Our sexual favors are only for one another, which is His will as well as ours. Since God commands against adultery, for my husband to do as you say would be going against the will of God, and I would be right to refuse to follow his direction at that point.

Yes, I get that, but old testament writings still state (as far as they can be deciphered) that women are the mens property... owned. There is talk of confusion about submission in this thread, therefore ONE of my points is just that, confusion about new teachings VS old teachings


Never mind, you just answered my question....and I'm not going to try to teach a course in Christianity on this thread. If someone else wants to take it on, more power to them. Let's just say, short version, that the Old Testament is Jewish law, and the New Testament is Christian teachings.

Im not debating who wrote the old and new testaments ... let me pose it this way....
Who wrote the original sciptures
Who Deciphered the original scriptures.. therefore.. who wrote the new testament and what did they use for referance

Im not slamming anyones religion ... Im asking for input.

You wouldnt form the wheel, build a house, engineer a bridge or anything else off a 2000 year old manual ... but, many people believe its a manual for their life. .... I find that facinating

 

[Teresa]

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
And my belief that submitting to the will of God, by both the husband and the wife, is what is expected, comes from my faith. Therefore, I can't truly explain it in a way that will make sense to those who do not have that faith and that belief. I'm not asking anyone to change their marital relationship and follow our model....it's not for everyone. But it IS for us, and I don't like the feeling that I'm getting from some in this thread.

 

[Teresa]

Yes, I get that, but old testament writings still state (as far as they can be deciphered) that women are the mens property... owned. There is talk of confusion about submission in this thread, therefore ONE of my points is just that, confusion about new teachings VS old teachings

I don't know what OT scriptures about submission you are referencing. According to my Bible concordance, submission is only written about in the NT...so if you wouldn't mind, please share chapter and verse in the OT where it says the wife should submit to the husband as the husband submits to the Lord. Thanks!!!

 

[gr8mom]

While there are instances in the OT where a husband or father gave his wife or daughter up to men for sexual purposes nowhere does it say it was the right thing to do. For example, when the men of Sodom and Gomorah were demanding that the angels be given up to them, Lot offered his daughters instead as (in his mind) this would be less evil. One might say that since Lot was considered a righteous man that this means it was acceptable. However insest is clearly outlawed in the OT law and yet Lot was the one who had drunken sex with both of his daughters. The other instance I can recall off the top of my head was in the same circumstances, men surrounded the building demanding the visitor be brought out so that they could rape him. In that case the wife was given up to them and consequently killed. I think these stories are examples of how wicked man was at the time and do not show that this was considered to be okay in God's eyes.