To be or not to be submissive...
- Thread starter gr8mom
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I think as marriage as a friendship. And I say friends should submit, heed, hear, trust, care, and more. It works both ways. I just think that scripture is misinterpreted and things keep changing. Society has changed and christians should ask for wisdom to adapt while maitaining the principles. thats all. It's not that bigadeal c'mon! Let's all be humble...
Teresa - the accounts of females being inferior to men in the OT are numerous and non stop. Submission is shown in many forms, willing and unwilling.
Exodus 21:7-11 , Corinthians 11:8
Women in ancient Israel had their position in society defined in the Hebrew Scriptures and in the interpretation of those scriptures. Their status and freedoms were severely limited by Jewish law and custom in ancient Israel:
- Women were restricted to roles of little or no authority.
- Women were confined to the homes of their fathers or husbands.
- Women were to be inferior to men, under the direct authority of men, their fathers before marriage, or their husband after.
- Women were not allowed to testify in court trials.
- Women could not appear in public venues.
- Women could not talk to strangers.
- Women were required to be doubly veiled when they ventured outside of their homes.
I think there is clear enough matter here to show this point.
Teresa, we may or may not share the same opinion.... I may just be asking questions.. as never once have I claimed any beliefs either way ... Ive asked questions.... but for what its worth there is no way I am saying anything negative about you nor your belief ... that is for you to own and for you to answer, and as long as your beliefs hurt no one, then they are yours to own, and no ones to judge.
cheers
Exodus 21:7-11 , Corinthians 11:8
Women in ancient Israel had their position in society defined in the Hebrew Scriptures and in the interpretation of those scriptures. Their status and freedoms were severely limited by Jewish law and custom in ancient Israel:
- Women were restricted to roles of little or no authority.
- Women were confined to the homes of their fathers or husbands.
- Women were to be inferior to men, under the direct authority of men, their fathers before marriage, or their husband after.
- Women were not allowed to testify in court trials.
- Women could not appear in public venues.
- Women could not talk to strangers.
- Women were required to be doubly veiled when they ventured outside of their homes.
I think there is clear enough matter here to show this point.
Teresa, we may or may not share the same opinion.... I may just be asking questions.. as never once have I claimed any beliefs either way ... Ive asked questions.... but for what its worth there is no way I am saying anything negative about you nor your belief ... that is for you to own and for you to answer, and as long as your beliefs hurt no one, then they are yours to own, and no ones to judge.
cheers
Well, obviously only the first passage is from the OT....and I don't see anything in it that tells a wife to be submitted to her husband. I see provisions for daughters who are sold into slavery.
The second passage, from the NT, also doesn't concern marital submission...it discusses how a woman should dress for church.
Here's the NT passage which I refer to regarding marital submission...and which I asked you to find a comparable passage to in the OT:
Ephesians 5:21-31
Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, His body, of which He is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ in everything, so also should wives submit to their husbands in everything.
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the Word, and to present her to Himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church--for we are members of His body. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two become one flesh.
And here's what my study Bible says about this passage:
"Here it is. The passage that brings many women to a screeching halt in front of God and their husbands. Paul exhorts women to submit to their husbands. Just how does one integrate such teachings into practical, everyday 21st century life?
Well, first of all as women and wives, we can't ignore the passage. But if we start with the beginning of the passage, verse 21, we see that all people are called to submit to one another for the sake of Christ--husbands, wives, children, singles...Christ has paid the ultimate sacrifice to save us, and we love Him for it. Therefore, we willingly submit to our brothers and sisters in the Lord out of that love. We love and submit because Christ first loved us.
In the same way, in the marital relationship, the beginning of the equation is not submission, but love. A husband's loving interaction with his wife will produce a willing submission to him. A wife's loving interaction with her husband will produce tender leadership on his part.
Submission doesn't mean women become wimpy, doormat wives. Submission requires an inner strength to obey God and willingly submit to one's husband. It means finding fulfillment and esteem in the godly role of a wife.
If we all willlingly and lovingly put others before self, submission becomes a non-issue. What a transformation such selflessness would make in a marriage, in a home, in the church."
Teresa said:
And in the world.
I love that, Teresa. If you don't mind me asking, what study Bible do you use?
Teresa ... I guess everyone deciphers the bible different. We can all read the same passage and you'll get 20 different answers as to what it means... this is my entire point.
Either way .... in the end its what serves us that counts ... as long as we dont harm others on our journey.
Cheers ... May your god be with you
Either way .... in the end its what serves us that counts ... as long as we dont harm others on our journey.
Cheers ... May your god be with you
OK so I really am going to stay out of all of the religion stuff, but I do want to say that my husband and I have made the mutual decision to split our responsibilities. He deals with traditional "guy stuff" - the cars, yard, trash, bug-killing, etc. I deal with the traditional "girl stuff" - cooking, cleaning, child, etc. We mutually decided that he would be the head of the household, so when it comes to big decisions, we do discuss them together, we both make our points, but ultimately they are his decisions. Is this submission? I don't really care. I am fine with it because we decided these things together.
Your assumptions would be incorrect. Something to consider ... if I was an Atheist, why would I refer to ANY god?gr8mom said:
In saying "your god", I see it as respectful, although I may not believe in what you do, I accept that you have a god you believe in.
Do I question religion? Many forms of it.. yes .. Christianity is one of the youngest religions in the world, Hinduism being the oldest organized without question. Tribal religions date back even farther, and with Tribal religions their "healers" CAN heal in many cases, as it involves remedy AND prayer.
Submission ? I cant recall a single post Ive seen in here that even comes close to what I believe is true submission. Is there modern day slavery? Oh yes very much, by many of the women that have posted ... but submission? ... not as far as Ive seen...
and again.,.. this is but MY opinion.. and not meant to offend anyone
Although Im not offended in the least, my beliefs are personal to me, but yes I have faith. I dont believe that faith or religion can or need to be defined by any one person, thus one of the reasons there are so many variables and translations of the Christian bible.gr8mom said:
As for submission...
No one can tell another to be submissive, its not anything that a bible, a faith, a god or anyone can demand of another.
If it is requested, demanded, cohersed or otherwise "told", then it is a form of slavery. There is much talk in this thread of submission through the bibles teachings, yet in female submission, in the old testament, females were sub servant of males, therefore how could it change so drastically because it was translated again?
In true submission, it is given, as a gift... in true submission, the submissive actually makes the rules and the Dominant partner carries them out, yet seemingly as the one "in charge". Submission isnt something one has to ask about ... define through a book, or do a poll for others input .. It is the giving of ones self in trust.
The true beauty of true submission, is that theres no true "definition" ... no one defines it in a book, in a preaching, or any other way ... the only person who can define it .... is the person who has given unto themselves... true and full submission.
Read this earlier today, and THIS is the wife I want to be for my husband:
Lord, help me to be a good wife. I fully realize that I don't have what it takes to be one without your help. Take my selfishness, impatience and irritability, and turn them into kindness, long-suffering and the willingness to bear all things. Take my old emotional habits, mindsets, automatic reactions, rude assumptions and self-protective stance, and make me patient, kind, good, faithful, gentle and self-controlled. Take the hardness of my heart and break down the walls with Your battering ram of revelation. Give me a new heart and work in me Your love, peace and joy. I am not able to rise above who I am at this moment. Only You can transform me.
Show me where there is sin in my heart, especially with regard to my husband. I confess the times I"ve been unloving, critical, angry, resentful, disrespectful or unforgiving toward him. Help me to put aside any hurt, anger or disappointment I feel and forgive him the way You do--totally and completely, no looking back. Make me a tool of reconciliation, peace and healing in this marriage. Enable us to communicate well and rescue us from the threshold of separation where the realities of divorce begin.
Make me my husband's helpmate, companion, champion, friend and support. Help me to create a preaceful, restful, safe place for him to come home to. Teach me how to take care of myself and stay attractive to him. Grow me into a creative and confident woman who is rich in mind, soul and spirit. Make me the kind of woman he can be proud to say is his wife. I lay all my expectations at Your cross. I release my husband from the burden of fulfilling me in areas where I should be looking to You. Help me to accept him the way he is and not try to change him. I realize that in some ways he may never change, but at the same time I release him to change in ways I never thought he could. I leave any changing that needs to be done in Your hands, fully accepting that neither of us is perfect and never will be. Only You, Lord, are perfect, and I look to You to perfect us.
Teach me how to pray for my husband and make my prayers a true language of love. Where love has died, create new love between us. Show me what unconditional love really is and how to communicate it in a way he can clearly perceive. Bring unity between us so that we can be in agreement about everything. May the God of patience and comfort grant us to be like-minded toward one another, according to Christ Jesus. Make us a team, not pursuing separate, competitive or independent lives, but working together, overlooking each other'saults and weaknesses for the greater good of the marriage. Help us to pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. May we be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgements.
I pray that our commitment to You and to one another will grow stronger and more passionate every day. Enable him to be the head of the home as You made him to be, and show me how to support and respect him as he rises to that place of leadership. Help me to understand his dreams and see things from his perspective. Reveal to me what he wants and needs, and show me potential problems before they arise. Breathe Your life into this marriage.
Make me a new person, Lord. Give me a fresh perspective, a positvie outlook, and a renewed relationship with the man You've given me. Help me see him with new eyes, new appreciation, new compassion, and new acceptance. Give my husband a new wife, and let it be me. AMEN.
Lord, help me to be a good wife. I fully realize that I don't have what it takes to be one without your help. Take my selfishness, impatience and irritability, and turn them into kindness, long-suffering and the willingness to bear all things. Take my old emotional habits, mindsets, automatic reactions, rude assumptions and self-protective stance, and make me patient, kind, good, faithful, gentle and self-controlled. Take the hardness of my heart and break down the walls with Your battering ram of revelation. Give me a new heart and work in me Your love, peace and joy. I am not able to rise above who I am at this moment. Only You can transform me.
Show me where there is sin in my heart, especially with regard to my husband. I confess the times I"ve been unloving, critical, angry, resentful, disrespectful or unforgiving toward him. Help me to put aside any hurt, anger or disappointment I feel and forgive him the way You do--totally and completely, no looking back. Make me a tool of reconciliation, peace and healing in this marriage. Enable us to communicate well and rescue us from the threshold of separation where the realities of divorce begin.
Make me my husband's helpmate, companion, champion, friend and support. Help me to create a preaceful, restful, safe place for him to come home to. Teach me how to take care of myself and stay attractive to him. Grow me into a creative and confident woman who is rich in mind, soul and spirit. Make me the kind of woman he can be proud to say is his wife. I lay all my expectations at Your cross. I release my husband from the burden of fulfilling me in areas where I should be looking to You. Help me to accept him the way he is and not try to change him. I realize that in some ways he may never change, but at the same time I release him to change in ways I never thought he could. I leave any changing that needs to be done in Your hands, fully accepting that neither of us is perfect and never will be. Only You, Lord, are perfect, and I look to You to perfect us.
Teach me how to pray for my husband and make my prayers a true language of love. Where love has died, create new love between us. Show me what unconditional love really is and how to communicate it in a way he can clearly perceive. Bring unity between us so that we can be in agreement about everything. May the God of patience and comfort grant us to be like-minded toward one another, according to Christ Jesus. Make us a team, not pursuing separate, competitive or independent lives, but working together, overlooking each other'saults and weaknesses for the greater good of the marriage. Help us to pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. May we be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgements.
I pray that our commitment to You and to one another will grow stronger and more passionate every day. Enable him to be the head of the home as You made him to be, and show me how to support and respect him as he rises to that place of leadership. Help me to understand his dreams and see things from his perspective. Reveal to me what he wants and needs, and show me potential problems before they arise. Breathe Your life into this marriage.
Make me a new person, Lord. Give me a fresh perspective, a positvie outlook, and a renewed relationship with the man You've given me. Help me see him with new eyes, new appreciation, new compassion, and new acceptance. Give my husband a new wife, and let it be me. AMEN.
Yes, I am, actually...usually more of a poet, but at the moment I'm working on an autobiographical novel that I hope to finish SOMEDAY.....LOL.
But I didn't write that prayer, it's from Power of a Praying Wife, by Stormie Omartian. I'm working on praying for myself, my husband and my children in specific areas every month...this is my prayer for ME for April.
But I didn't write that prayer, it's from Power of a Praying Wife, by Stormie Omartian. I'm working on praying for myself, my husband and my children in specific areas every month...this is my prayer for ME for April.
Teresa... very nice post and not devaluating it in the least ... its for you and what works for you... I commend you on that.
The part that I..."dont get" .. or have a hard time with... if you will.
In my eyes and translation of such readings, you are asking for help from a source other than yourself. Part of what I believe is that we are all learning through a journey, and that we are the ones asked to set our own path, decide which crossroad to take. Somewhat of a test and at the same time an offer to show our maturity.
Its like a child... although we may guide them to some extent, they still ave to find their own path along the way, and as parents its our job to help them do so, not to ensure that they run a specific path with specific stops... live like an assembly line.
Ive read many books that have allowed me to ask the questions I need to, to build upon my beliefs, to gain strength in areas I am weak, knowledge where I need teachings.
Again, no matter the faith, cult, sect or other... we could all read the same passage and still come up with 20 different interpretations of it... so this isnt against anyones beliefs.
Conversations with God - An uncommon DIalogue
Illusions - The Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah
Ones deep, one you can read to your kids ... but both very interesting reads if you allow your mind to soak up
The part that I..."dont get" .. or have a hard time with... if you will.
In my eyes and translation of such readings, you are asking for help from a source other than yourself. Part of what I believe is that we are all learning through a journey, and that we are the ones asked to set our own path, decide which crossroad to take. Somewhat of a test and at the same time an offer to show our maturity.
Its like a child... although we may guide them to some extent, they still ave to find their own path along the way, and as parents its our job to help them do so, not to ensure that they run a specific path with specific stops... live like an assembly line.
Ive read many books that have allowed me to ask the questions I need to, to build upon my beliefs, to gain strength in areas I am weak, knowledge where I need teachings.
Again, no matter the faith, cult, sect or other... we could all read the same passage and still come up with 20 different interpretations of it... so this isnt against anyones beliefs.
Conversations with God - An uncommon DIalogue
Illusions - The Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah
Ones deep, one you can read to your kids ... but both very interesting reads if you allow your mind to soak up
