Carried over suspension: should I fight it?...

[Avianmosquito]

Have to be honest my brain came to a screeching halt at "black hair and green eyes".

Heck, this kid has not only the most extreme little life and is so far advanced developmentally (and sexually) but she also has the worlds most uncommon naturally occurring hair/eye combination. Also the weight, because she apparently weighs only 6 kilos more than my short-for-his-age 5yr old.

Black hair from her dad, green eyes from her mom. Not hard to figure out, really. I'm also very sure Sam was born premature, especially since her mom was very, very overweight and that does increase the chance. I know she is very small for her age, likely as a result of a premature birth, and we don't have a scale so I'm taking her word for it on her weight. She gave it to me as "about eighty pounds." I haven't used pounds in years, I didn't think about it.

I've got my answer now anyway. We're really off-topic, and I'm really tired. Can we cut this short, or at least pick it up in the morning? If you really want, she's at her mom's house right now and her mom has a scale. I'll call in the morning and get her weight confirmed.

 

[Xero]

She was joking. Her sense of humour is questionable at best. She told me a joke the other day about eating a vegetable that I shan't repeat in public.

I must have been insanely naïve at her age, because not only would I never consider joking around like that to or in front of adults, but I probably didn't even know what any of that meant. I would have been mortified if my bra size (not that I had any boobs at 11) had been mentioned at all, let alone bragged/joked about it myself.

Given that she could talk when I got her, you should be able to tell that's an exaggeration. I can't remember when I picked up on it, not exactly, and the hyperbole sounded good in my head.

Right, okay I guess, but... To give you some perspective. I'm pretty sure my oldest (about to turn 6) still only has like a limited understanding of the difference between boys and girls in general lol, let alone whether he is attracted to one or the other of them. He has literally no idea what sex is, probably doesn't even know it exists. At best um... Idk sometimes I catch him putting the bath cups over top of his stuff and laughing lol. What do you think that means? My 2 year old, I'm not even sure if he really knows he has privates, he can't really see past his big belly. haha And I don't think my kids are strange, I'm the oldest of 6 so I think I've seen really all of this stuff before. So your exaggeration seemed REALLY exaggerated to me.

As a person who remembers <I>being</I> a child, and how I thought <I>as</I> a child, that's news to me.

I'm sorry, that was a bit of a broad statement, I should have been more specific. Small children, toddlers and preschoolers etc, is what I was referring to mostly. Again, "before she could talk" I'm picturing a baby, even when you say you were exaggerating I'm thinking toddler or preschooler at best.

Alright, I didn't exactly know all that much about the law at that point. Was it irresponsible not to look into the legal precident (or lack thereof)? Yes. But with how I was, mentally, at the time (keep in mind several people I knew recently died) I took the excuse to give up the moment I had it. Thankfully, I got over that.

I'm sorry, you only mentioned one of them dying in your intro post, can you remind me again which one it was? Was that the "sleazy old scumbag" or the "half-dead hag"?

She killed the dog. End of story.

A toddler......? Killed a dog....? I don't even know how to respond to this.

.

I apologize for misunderstanding where you were living at the times of the incidents, okay that makes a little more sense although still very extreme.

I was with the woman who Sam adopted as a mother, who I then refer to as her mother for the rest of this.

So.... a woman you were dating breastfed a child she didn't give birth to for 6 years?

Yes, I have. Unfortunately, I'm not on good terms with the people who run the only cyberschool in my area. After all, the cyberschool is run by a real, physical highschool and I used to go to that highschool. I was NOT a pleasant student, and I had no respect for my teachers there. I let them know that on a regular basis.

I really don't see how your personal experience with a high school you attended as a teenager has absolutely anything to do with your child being cyber schooled by them. That would be very unprofessional of them to shun the thought of cyber schooling your child just because they didn't like you, as a high schooler.

The issue is I put a lot of value in her choice, when it comes to her and her safety.

Really? You seriously trust her with herself and her safety? After all of these awful things have happened and all the poor decisions she's made? She's a child. You are her parent. It is your JOB to make the decisions regarding herself and her safety. If I trusted my kids with themselves and their safety, after one day my 6 year old would be throwing up in a corner of chocolate/sugar overdose and my 2 year old would have drowned in the toilet. I mean if that's the case, why do kids even need parents?

I know she is very small for her age, likely as a result of a premature birth

That really has nothing to do with the way you grow up. I was born 2 months premature. I've never been abnormally small. My oldest was born late at 8lbs even and has always been tiny. Only 38lbs and 42" one of the smallest in his class. What you are saying is that you think she's behind for her age because she's technically younger than the other kids in her class? You realize that it's only possible for her to be like a matter of weeks or MAYBE a couple months younger than them, so that doesn't really matter at all at this age right?

I've got my answer now anyway. We're really off-topic, and I'm really tired. Can we cut this short, or at least pick it up in the morning?

I don't see how we are off topic. And there is no deadline as to when you are required to respond to a post in your thread. You can respond now, tomorrow morning, or never. That's all up to you. No one is asking you to stay up.

 

[Avianmosquito]

I must have been insanely naïve at her age, because not only would I never consider joking around like that to or in front of adults, but I probably didn't even know what any of that meant. I would have been mortified if my bra size (not that I had any boobs at 11) had been mentioned at all, let alone bragged/joked about it myself.

I'm not going to defend that. I'd prefer her humour was a little less sexual, myself. I'd also prefer she not make jokes about cannibalism, the disabled or famous paraplegics. Alright, no, I really don't care about her off-colour jokes, but I'd prefer they be a bit less personal. When I ask "Alright, I've got hair, eyes, skin, height and weight, am I forgetting anything?" her answer should not be "Oh, I don't know, maybe my shoe size? My pant size? Oh, how about my cup size?" Her mom buys her clothes. I don't even KNOW any of those things.

Right, okay I guess, but... To give you some perspective. I'm pretty sure my oldest (about to turn 6) still only has like a limited understanding of the difference between boys and girls in general lol, let alone whether he is attracted to one or the other of them. He has literally no idea what sex is, probably doesn't even know it exists. At best um... Idk sometimes I catch him putting the bath cups over top of his stuff and laughing lol. What do you think that means? My 2 year old, I'm not even sure if he really knows he has privates, he can't really see past his big belly. haha And I don't think my kids are strange, I'm the oldest of 6 so I think I've seen really all of this stuff before. So your exaggeration seemed REALLY exaggerated to me.

You want a solid age? I can say for certain I knew when she was age 4, probably a year or so earlier.

I'm sorry, that was a bit of a broad statement, I should have been more specific. Small children, toddlers and preschoolers etc, is what I was referring to mostly. Again, "before she could talk" I'm picturing a baby, even when you say you were exaggerating I'm thinking toddler or preschooler at best.

I knew I was straight when I was in preschool. I even knew which girl I was attracted to. Although I didn't really think of it as sexual, I knew my sexuality. ("I want to snuggle with this girl.") You could sit down and ask me, and I would have known enough to say "I like girls. I like-like girls." Sam knew enough to answer the question as well.

I'm sorry, you only mentioned one of them dying in your intro post, can you remind me again which one it was? Was that the "sleazy old scumbag" or the "half-dead hag"?

My great grandmother died. But they only moved because of a family death (great, great grandmother) and before that there was another (great uncle) and recently two of my friends had died. (A girl I used to date, and a guy from the modding team we were both in.) That's a lot in the span of about four months. "Distraught" is the right word.

A toddler......? Killed a dog....? I don't even know how to respond to this.

It's a jack-russel terrier, it's a small dog. It bit her, she hit it over the head with the leg of a broken stool. She hit it at least three times that I saw. By the time we got out there, her arm was torn up and the dog's head was split open. Dog died, she got a cast.

I apologize for misunderstanding where you were living at the times of the incidents, okay that makes a little more sense although still very extreme.

Let's just say I wasn't exactly heartbroken about moving.

So.... a woman you were dating breastfed a child she didn't give birth to for 6 years?

Yes. See why I thought that was weird? I mean, her breatfeeding her made since for the first year or two, but after that it was just weird.

I really don't see how your personal experience with a high school you attended as a teenager has absolutely anything to do with your child being cyber schooled by them. That would be very unprofessional of them to shun the thought of cyber schooling your child just because they didn't like you, as a high schooler.

I don't think they will, but I do think it'll be very awkward to come to them for help. I'd rather avoid that.

Really? You seriously trust her with herself and her safety? After all of these awful things have happened and all the poor decisions she's made? She's a child. You are her parent. It is your JOB to make the decisions regarding herself and her safety. If I trusted my kids with themselves and their safety, after one day my 6 year old would be throwing up in a corner of chocolate/sugar overdose and my 2 year old would have drowned in the toilet. I mean if that's the case, why do kids even need parents?

My child is adamant about remaining in school. I talk to her about it <I>every single time</I> something happens, every summer and every winter both at the beginning and end of the break I hound her for several days about it. I'm hoping this suspension will give me the chance to make her move to IA without making her feel like I'm forcing her.

That really has nothing to do with the way you grow up. I was born 2 months premature. I've never been abnormally small. My oldest was born late at 8lbs even and has always been tiny. Only 38lbs and 42" one of the smallest in his class. What you are saying is that you think she's behind for her age because she's technically younger than the other kids in her class? You realize that it's only possible for her to be like a matter of weeks or MAYBE a couple months younger than them, so that doesn't really matter at all at this age right?

Alright, it's a weekend, they're not asleep. I really didn't want to call at this hour anyway on the off chance, so I sent a text message, she checked for me. She says she's 43kg (~95lbs) and sarcastically added "Now I feel fat."

I don't see how we are off topic. And there is no deadline as to when you are required to respond to a post in your thread. You can respond now, tomorrow morning, or never. That's all up to you. No one is asking you to stay up.

Right. When these go really fast I often forget there's no time limit.

 

[cybele]

A few things making me scratch my head here.

1. I don't doubt that there are parents that pick a child's sexuality, but doing so in a toddler/pre-schooler (I interpreted it the same way as Xero) is pretty far-fetched. Not to mention that if she was talking well before other kids... as an infant? I know a lot of parents of LGBT teens/young adults through the support group that Dita now heads and the only ones who really had suspicions/'picked it' were those whose children didn't 'come out' until later on, so they had their teenagers years to have their suspicions. Personally, Dita came out to us at 13, even by then her sexuality hadn't crossed my mind because heck, she was 13 and not many pre-teens show romantic/sexual preferences in their day-to-day lives, and to be honest she was very confused by it all too at the time, because she was 13 and lives in this world where it is not the norm and it is drilled into kids from such a young age that boys like girls and girls like boys, her exact words were "I have feelings for girls the way that I think I am supposed to be having feelings for boys, what is wrong with me?"
Of course, not all pre-teens feel the same way, but the idea of someone guessing it at such a young age, when really, what are you looking at to guess it here? Is pretty extreme. Kids make silly comments about snuggling and hugging all the time, towards both girls and boys, it's not indicative of future sexuality.

2. By the time kids reach well... school age, your average preemie cannot be distinguished from their peers. My SIL has twins, they fall right in between Sunny and Lux with regards to age and they were born at 34 weeks, whereas Sunny and Lux were both full-term, now, line up the 4 girls up and well, you can pick that Sunny is older than Lux, because there is two years there, but put their cousins in the middle and it all gets blurred. They are all roughly the same height, weight and build.
I have to be honest, with that weight, I am picturing a child the size of your average 7-8yr old getting into physical fights with kids her age and coming out on top. Sorry, but no amount of stubborn-ness gives you that ability. I am tiny and as stubborn as a mule and there is no chance in hell that I could do that.

3. According to you she has ran away from 'home', stolen money, killed a dog (a Jack Russell of all things, your average toddler does not go into attack mode following a bite from one of those, they are bred to bite, they're hunting dogs, not to mention that it would have fought back), assaulted her school teachers multiple times, broken someone's nose... how have the police not gotten involved yet?

4. Where did this breast milk in your ex-girlfriend come from? Women don't walk around with full breasts just waiting for a random child to feed, the milk is brought on by pregnancy hormones and needs to be maintained via demand, otherwise it just dries up.



You do realise that most of this doesn't add up and that most of what you have said is exceptionally unrealistic, right?

 

[Avianmosquito]

I already addressed the majority of these in my previous post. Please check for new posts before replying to old ones.

A few things making me scratch my head here.

1. I don't doubt that there are parents that pick a child's sexuality, but doing so in a toddler/pre-schooler (I interpreted it the same way as Xero) is pretty far-fetched. Not to mention that if she was talking well before other kids... as an infant? I know a lot of parents of LGBT teens/young adults through the support group that Dita now heads and the only ones who really had suspicions/'picked it' were those whose children didn't 'come out' until later on, so they had their teenagers years to have their suspicions. Personally, Dita came out to us at 13, even by then her sexuality hadn't crossed my mind because heck, she was 13 and not many pre-teens show romantic/sexual preferences in their day-to-day lives, and to be honest she was very confused by it all too at the time, because she was 13 and lives in this world where it is not the norm and it is drilled into kids from such a young age that boys like girls and girls like boys, her exact words were "I have feelings for girls the way that I think I am supposed to be having feelings for boys, what is wrong with me?"
Of course, not all pre-teens feel the same way, but the idea of someone guessing it at such a young age, when really, what are you looking at to guess it here? Is pretty extreme. Kids make silly comments about snuggling and hugging all the time, towards both girls and boys, it's not indicative of future sexuality.

Sad story, but not really applicable. While I always had suspicions, and was already fairly certain by the time it came about, the conversation that confirmed it for me (which was either shortly before or shortly after her 4th birthday) went like this:

"Daddy, are you and mommy ever going to get married?" (Of course, she pronounced "daddy" as "da-ii", but she did that on purpose whenever she was feeling cutesy.)
"Probably not, sweetie."
"Why?" (UGH. This was the "why" stage, for a second I didn't know she was serious, but I answered her seriously anyway just in case.)
"Well, I don't see why we need to be married for... anything we do." (Kicking myself for almost saying it.)
"But then why does anybody get married?" (THERE, there, you see that? That was THOUGHT. I really hate those people who claim children can't think.)
"Because they're told to. They're told from the moment they're born that they're supposed to grow up and get married. Every little girl is told to find a boy she loves and have him get her a piece of pricy metal for her finger. Supposed to make it official and all." (I was a very disgruntled young man. Can you tell?)
"Well, I still want to." (UGH. I'm glad to see she grew out of that.)
"Oh? Anybody particular in mind?" (There was a particular little boy I thought she was thinking of. I was wrong.)
"Well..."
"Who is he?"
"She, daddy."
"So... you like girls then? Your mom owes me $20." (Not really. We never bet on it, and if we did I'd have lost the money.)
"I like boys too... but I really, really like her!"
I'm going to omit the other child's name, and actually the rest of the conversation is irrelevant.

2. By the time kids reach well... school age, your average preemie cannot be distinguished from their peers. My SIL has twins, they fall right in between Sunny and Lux with regards to age and they were born at 34 weeks, whereas Sunny and Lux were both full-term, now, line up the 4 girls up and well, you can pick that Sunny is older than Lux, because there is two years there, but put their cousins in the middle and it all gets blurred. They are all roughly the same height, weight and build.

She's a head shorter than her classmates, and she guessed her weight. I texted her and confirmed that she was a fair bit heavier than that. Not really surprising. I'm a man and not very self-conscious, but if asked off the top of my head I'd probably estimate my weight quite a bit low as well. She's 43kg, not 36.

I have to be honest, with that weight, I am picturing a child the size of your average 7-8yr old getting into physical fights with kids her age and coming out on top. Sorry, but no amount of stubborn-ness gives you that ability. I am tiny and as stubborn as a mule and there is no chance in hell that I could do that.

Here, it's more about adrenalin. This girl gets an adrenalin rush just in an argument. The typical person uses 20% of their strength under normal circumstances. Even going up to 50%, she's still 2.5x as strong as she should be and her doing things like breaking an 8th-grader's jaw (which she did during her last fight, in one punch) aren't surprising anymore. It also explains why she's still standing, when I take her to the doctor and find out she had a ruptured mammary and a broken rib. (As well as a cracked pelvis and really badly bruised genitals. Those girls were fighting really dirty.)

3. According to you she has ran away from 'home', stolen money, killed a dog (a Jack Russell of all things, your average toddler does not go into attack mode following a bite from one of those, they are bred to bite, they're hunting dogs, not to mention that it would have fought back), assaulted her school teachers multiple times, broken someone's nose... how have the police not gotten involved yet?

"Average toddler." WHAT about her is average? Really, what? Besides, this was defence mode, she was lying on her back and swinging wildly at this point. She already had the stool leg in her hand, which her birth father used to play fetch with that dog, and it attacked her. She killed it out of panic, not aggression. She then cried about it, and when I picked her up she asked me to "fix" the dog, over and over again. As if I could just put the dog's brains back in its head and it snap back to life.

Funny thing? She still likes dogs. She prefers cats, but she still likes dogs, even after that.

As for the police, they have gotten involved. She's never been arrested, but the police have picked her up and taken her back to her mother more than a few times. Her mother never pressed charges, and when her teacher did the judge put her on a month's probation. (Light? Yes. But she's a little girl, the man she hit was in his late 30s and used to be a highschool wrestling coach before he moved. The judge didn't take it seriously at all.) The others were too minor for any charges to be pressed. Shoving a gym coach? Might get charges pressed at 18, but not at 8. Spitting in a teacher's eye? Got her a week's suspension, but no charges.

4. Where did this breast milk in your ex-girlfriend come from? Women don't walk around with full breasts just waiting for a random child to feed, the milk is brought on by pregnancy hormones and needs to be maintained via demand, otherwise it just dries up.

I'm a man. A fairly young man, at that. I used to be a very young man, before that a boy. I'm heterosexual and I was very active from a young age. Do you really think there is any way I could have failed to test whether or not non-pregnant women lactate? Any at all? Well, there isn't. I tested it personally and extensively. I am well aware that women do not normally lactate until pregnancy.

She started lactating about a year before we got Sam, I don't know why. A failed pregnancy while I wasn't present, most likely, but sometimes they start up spontaneously due to a fluke in a woman's hormones. Normally this would be during puberty, sometimes it happens shortly after birth, sometimes randomly in an adult women following a missed period. (With no miscarriage, so it's not due to pregnancy.) As for demand... yeah, that part was me. Me and a few others. No matter what reason she started lactating for, she was kept lactating by adults. (Hey, you asked.)

You do realise that most of this doesn't add up and that most of what you have said is exceptionally unrealistic, right?

You do realise that I addressed all of this already, right?

 

[Andrew W.]

First, a short answer to the question you asked: No.

Originally Posted by cybele

12 month olds typically poo, cry, eat, make a mess, sleep, crawl around, babble, drool and stick things in their mouth. That's really it.

Twelve month kids are talking, or a lot are. That is a year. They have often been walking for a while, at least along a wall. (Median age for walking independently is 14 months, but 9 months is well within normal.) They have been masturbating for a lot longer.

&lt;http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/116/6/1427.full&gt;:

&gt; Masturbation involves stimulation of the genitals and typically begins
&gt; at ∼2 months of age, although in utero masturbatory behavior has
&gt; been reported also.

That paper footnotes this claim, and the link is to a pdf of a fully available 1993 Canadian paper, also heavily footnoted, which I looked at. Suffice it to say, toddlers and even infants repeat what feels good when they do it randomly the first time.

Originally Posted by Xero

I'm having a really hard time taking in really all of your posts (yes I have read everything from your intro post to this one), it all sounds more like a really extreme, disturbing movie plot or something. I'm not trying to offend you, just telling you how your descriptions come off to me. A lot of it is difficult to take seriously. I wouldn't sit here and say that it's impossible by any means, but it's all very unusual.

Excellently put. I was trying to figure out what to say or whether to say anything. I am kind of touchy on this issue myself right now and didn't want to be offensive in that particular way. But I am going to be offensive. Accepting everything that has been posted as at least pretty much true, with a few exaggerations or mistakes, here is what I see.


Sam is a profoundly disturbed individual. Some of her behavior borders on sociopathic, but I from what you say I don't think she is a sociopath. She is closer to being feral. I think she has been rewarded for her violent and antisocial behavior because the person closest to her is proud of her for it. You recognize it as a problem, but it is clear from your posts here that you are proud of her for it. I think it is also clear to her. You hate the world, and she has picked up on that. You wish you could get away with spitting in the face of the world, or a teacher. Because you approve, deep down, and she knows it, she has no motivation to change. The punishments she gets don't bother her. Whether she just doesn't care, or the rewards for her behaviors overwhelm them, I can't really say.

She cuddles with you in bed because you allow her to, and you like it. On some level you don't want her to and recognize it as inappropriate, but on a more clearly communicated level you enjoy it and want it to continue, and you don't put a stop to it.

Whether she came up with the idea of her bisexuality herself doesn't matter. It could have even started with the teasing and bullying from older kids. But it is something that gets her approval from you. Being alone and picked on and fighting against the whole world gets her approval from you more than anything else does. So she doesn't avoid conflict, she seeks it. She has probably always liked touching anything. Boy, girl, kitten, sofa upholstery, her genitals. She enjoys sex play with anybody, and has been allowed to act in ways beyond what is normally considered appropriate. Now at 12 and sexually aware she really is bisexual, and old enough to identify as such and understand what it means.

She is certainly disruptive to school, and probably shouldn't be in one. That should be a reward for being able to govern one's behavior to a certain degree. Think about home schooling, or unschooling. Look at alternative schools in your area. Think about moving if you find one outside your area. Look especially at Sudbury schools (no authority except the students). I don't think Sam as she is right now could even fit into one of those, but she should approve of the idea.

You need to get her help to learn the things she hasn't learned--don't hit people, don't spit on people, respect people, and not just her. The two of you should probably be seeing someone together, because a lot of her problems arise from the dynamic with you.

I am not saying she needs to learn that authority is good. But if she can't learn to pick her battles, dampen down her contempt so it isn't obvious all the time, she won't survive to become Starbuck (from the remake of Battlestar Galactica) or whoever else she is heading toward being.

Find a counselor she or the two of you can deal with. I guarantee you one exists. If you insist and mean it, and go into the search just as critically as she does with the idea that you will find someone, you will. The counselor should be an ally, a spy from society who can help you all figure out how Sam can survive in it.

Watch the remake of Battlestar Galactica with her, and pay special attention to Starbuck. Read and discuss some Tamora Pierce books with her, like the Song of the Lioness. There are some very strong (and violent and sexual) young female heros in Pierce's works, albeit in worlds where that is more acceptable than ours, and my daughter loves just about all of them. Encourage her to discover her own favorite books, then read and discuss them with her.

The one thing that seems to be good in all this is that you love her, and she knows it. Now you just need to get over your hatred of the world enough for that to do her some good.

 

[cybele]

First, a short answer to the question you asked: No.

Twelve month kids are talking, or a lot are. That is a year. They have often been walking for a while, at least along a wall. (Median age for walking independently is 14 months, but 9 months is well within normal.) They have been masturbating for a lot longer.

&lt;http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/116/6/1427.full&gt;:

&gt; Masturbation involves stimulation of the genitals and typically begins
&gt; at ∼2 months of age, although in utero masturbatory behavior has
&gt; been reported also.

That paper footnotes this claim, and the link is to a pdf of a fully available 1993 Canadian paper, also heavily footnoted, which I looked at. Suffice it to say, toddlers and even infants repeat what feels good when they do it randomly the first time.

.

I was questioning running, not masturbating.

I feel like I have fallen into sex world here, everyone has sex on the brain at the moment.

 

[Andrew W.]

Sorry to have misinterpreted your comments, cybele. And I agree with much of what you are trying to say in this thread. But let me quote that whole paragraph of yours I selected from and the one after it, as well, so you will understand where my confusion came from:

Originally Posted by cybele

I don't believe that a 12 month old was showing sexual behaviour, sorry, but I don't, I think you are seeing things that aren't there. 12 month olds typically poo, cry, eat, make a mess, sleep, crawl around, babble, drool and stick things in their mouth. That's really it.

Kids pull down each other's pants and take off their clothes, it's not exactly sexual, it's curiosity, it's normal and the majority of kids do it.

If I have sex on the brain it is because you used the word "sexual" twice in two paragraphs, and I thought you were arguing that children that young (twelve months) don't have a sexual awareness.

 

[Avianmosquito]

Twelve month kids are talking, or a lot are. That is a year. They have often been walking for a while, at least along a wall. (Median age for walking independently is 14 months, but 9 months is well within normal.) They have been masturbating for a lot longer.

&lt;http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/116/6/1427.full&gt;:

...You know, I've actually read that before.

As for talking, she was at the "short phrases" stage when I got her. Our first conversation after I took her went like this:

"Sam, you're going to be living with me now."
"You da-ii now?" (She really did pronounce it that way at first. Hence why later she used that pronunciation when she was feeling cutesy.)
"Yes, I'm daddy now. And you're missing a couple of d's." (I know, I know.)
"Wha?"
"Daddy. It's pronounced daddy."
"Isad tat." (I'm trying to transcribe her mispronunciations.)

Sam is a profoundly disturbed individual. Some of her behavior borders on sociopathic, but I from what you say I don't think she is a sociopath. She is closer to being feral. I think she has been rewarded for her violent and antisocial behavior because the person closest to her is proud of her for it. You recognize it as a problem, but it is clear from your posts here that you are proud of her for it. I think it is also clear to her. You hate the world, and she has picked up on that. You wish you could get away with spitting in the face of the world, or a teacher. Because you approve, deep down, and she knows it, she has no motivation to change. The punishments she gets don't bother her. Whether she just doesn't care, or the rewards for her behaviors overwhelm them, I can't really say.

I don't hate the world, but I can't bring myself to be disappointed when she, for instance, breaks the nose of a teacher who calls her stupid and insults her intelligence and sexuality on a daily basis. I most especially can't bring myself to be disappointed when other kids hit her and she hits back harder. In fact, yes, I'm proud of her for defending herself so well.

She cuddles with you in bed because you allow her to, and you like it. On some level you don't want her to and recognize it as inappropriate, but on a more clearly communicated level you enjoy it and want it to continue, and you don't put a stop to it.

Well, as a mammal, I do certainly enjoy it to some extent. Also, as a mammal, so does she. That doesn't change her getting to old for it, and too big for my single bed. (I'm not exactly rolling in wealth over here.) That said, she doesn't sleep with me when she has friends over, then she bunks with them.

As for "putting a stop to it", I've gone so far as to lock her out of my bedroom and order (I'm terrible at giving orders, I hate telling people what to do) her to stay out, and she was still there in the morning. (That isn't really surprising, the lock on my door is awful and comes undone if you pull the handle up.) When I asked her what she was doing there, she said "I couldn't sleep, it was too cold." It was the middle of summer.

Whether she came up with the idea of her bisexuality herself doesn't matter. It could have even started with the teasing and bullying from older kids. But it is something that gets her approval from you.

Sexuality is inherent to the individual. While what parts of it are embraced and expressed may be determined by upbringing and society, no factor can add or remove any part of it. Humans are also bisexual by default, although obviously varying on extremity. Basically, on the Kinsey scale, 0 and 6 are bunk and people who think they're 0 or 6 are really 1 or 5 and are fooling themselves. Sam is about a 2, although the lack of homosexual females in this area probably swayed her towards the hetero side.

Being alone and picked on and fighting against the whole world gets her approval from you more than anything else does.

I prefer when she isn't fighting, really. I prefer when she handles things with her wits, rather than her fists. I remember a time when she shut down an assembly at her middle school by singing. The assembly was on the military, and was your typical recruitment propaganda. She started singing "Jars", soon a couple other kids joined in, and this snowballed. She got 200+ kids singing a protest song at a recruitment assembly and the soldiers stormed out. THAT made me proud. I let her know that in no uncertain terms.

So she doesn't avoid conflict, she seeks it.

Whether that's for my approval or her own satisfaction is up for debate.

She has probably always liked touching anything. Boy, girl, kitten, sofa upholstery, her genitals.

...That IS the human default, yes, what's your point?

She enjoys sex play with anybody, and has been allowed to act in ways beyond what is normally considered appropriate. Now at 12 and sexually aware she really is bisexual, and old enough to identify as such and understand what it means.

She met that criteria half a lifetime ago.

She is certainly disruptive to school, and probably shouldn't be in one.

1. This school is strongly homophobic, as are most of the faculty members and students. She's bisexual, they give her a hard time.
2. This school is strongly Christian. We are both atheists. They don't like us not believing in their god one bit.
3. This school is strongly conservative. While I'm libertarian at heart only, I know Sam is libertarian in all respects.

While I'm sure she'd still have some problems in a better school, she would have by far less because the sources of all her major conflicts would be removed.

That should be a reward for being able to govern one's behavior to a certain degree.

She CAN govern her own behaviour. What she can't govern is OTHER PEOPLE. She can't control the teachers who insult and belittle her, she can't control the students that harass and attack her, she can't control the administrators that turn a blind eye to it or punish her for fighting back. It's THIS school that she has problems with. I know this, because although imperfect as her behaviour was in her old district, she got into a grand total of one fist fight at that school, not counting the time she got jumped after hours.

She didn't hate her teachers there, at least not most of them, and her complaints then were mostly about the administrators. Her suspensions, even during the times she was in her mother's custody and (as I've heard) a little hellion, she still only got into trouble at school for backtalk and minor sexual interactions. ("Playing doctor.")

Think about moving if you find one outside your area.

Yeah, I'll get right on that with all that money I don't have.

Look especially at Sudbury schools (no authority except the students). I don't think Sam as she is right now could even fit into one of those, but she should approve of the idea.

There's no way that exists in the US.

You need to get her help to learn the things she hasn't learned--don't hit people, don't spit on people, respect people, and not just her.

Again, she's fine unless provoked. The other students provoke her, her teachers provoke her and the school admins provoke her. None of these things need be the case in another school district. If I had the money to move, I would move.

The two of you should probably be seeing someone together, because a lot of her problems arise from the dynamic with you.

No. I am not taking her to some dishonest mystic with a phony degree in a field that doesn't have enough evidence to even qualify as a pseudo-science to get her words twisted, a label slapped on her and bottle full of drugs pushed at us. It is NOT going to happen. Not now, not later, not EVER.

I am not saying she needs to learn that authority is good.

Oh, good. Because that would be a barefaced lie if I ever saw one.

But if she can't learn to pick her battles, dampen down her contempt so it isn't obvious all the time,

We need to move. That's really it. She can't "dampen down" her contempt in a school that makes no effort to "dampen down" its contempt for her.

Watch the remake of Battlestar Galactica with her, and pay special attention to Starbuck. Read and discuss some Tamora Pierce books with her, like the Song of the Lioness. There are some very strong (and violent and sexual) young female heros in Pierce's works, albeit in worlds where that is more acceptable than ours, and my daughter loves just about all of them. Encourage her to discover her own favorite books, then read and discuss them with her.

Yeah... somehow, I don't think fiction holds the key to solving our problems.

The one thing that seems to be good in all this is that you love her, and she knows it.

It would be very hard for her not to. As for good things, she is hyper-capable. That's a good thing if I ever saw one.

Now you just need to get over your hatred of the world enough for that to do her some good.

Again, I don't hate "the world." My hatred is more strictly confined, mostly to individuals and governments, and is a list of specific issues rather than general hatred.

I was questioning running, not masturbating.

As the guy who had to watch her in case she ran into a wall (which she did, frequently) and the guy who had to hold her arms to keep them above the waist while changing her, I can attest to both. (I think once I started trying to stop her that it became a game to her.)

I feel like I have fallen into sex world here, everyone has sex on the brain at the moment.

I'm <I>trying</I> to keep my mind off it, if that makes you feel any better.

 

[Avianmosquito]

Sorry to have misinterpreted your comments, cybele. And I agree with much of what you are trying to say in this thread. But let me quote that whole paragraph of yours I selected from and the one after it, as well, so you will understand where my confusion came from:

If I have sex on the brain it is because you used the word "sexual" twice in two paragraphs, and I thought you were arguing that children that young (twelve months) don't have a sexual awareness.

Alright, everybody got confused here. Can we move on?

 

[mom2many]

Okay, so here's where I am going to be way different then everyone else, who is trying to be nice about what they are saying.

Me, I don't have to time to be nice, so instead I'll just be blunt.

She needs HELP, and she needs it NOW, she needs more help then you can offer her, and she needs more help then the school can offer her.

It sounds like she has an attachment disorder. You can not fix this on your own, and why would you want to set her up for failure as an adult.

Just because professional help, didn't work for you. Doesn't mean it won't work for her. You want to bury your head in the sand, and make excuse after excuse: fine. That's your right.

However, this problem isn't going to go away. It isn't going to get better with age. It's going to get worse.

 

[Avianmosquito]

Okay, so here's where I am going to be way different then everyone else, who is trying to be nice about what they are saying.

Me, I don't have to time to be nice, so instead I'll just be blunt.

She needs HELP, and she needs it NOW, she needs more help then you can offer her, and she needs more help then the school can offer her.

Alright, let's just accept this premise for the moment.

It sounds like she has an attachment disorder. You can not fix this on your own, and why would you want to set her up for failure as an adult.

I object to labelling her, but this works for now.

Just because professional help, didn't work for you. Doesn't mean it won't work for her. You want to bury your head in the sand, and make excuse after excuse: fine. That's your right.

However, this problem isn't going to go away. It isn't going to get better with age. It's going to get worse.

A psychologist is about as likely to solve a psychological problem as a doctor is to cure cancer, for the same reason. Which is to say "There's no chance at all, because there's no money in it." They aren't trying to solve your problems, just to make you feel better while still having them, so you have a reason to keep coming back and forking over their ridiculous fee for as long as humanly possible. This is reinforced by their ridiculous Skinner-box appointment structure. Nobody is less likely to solve your problems than somebody who has a vested financial interest in their continuance.

On that note, how exactly do you think I can afford such a bill? Are you aware of my financial situation? It is not pretty. I had to talk my grandparents into moving back into my house and paying my bills because I simply don't have the money for them since I lost my job. (Again.) I haven't been able to get a new job, not for lack of trying mind you, and my grandparents demanded I go back to school or they're going to kick me out and send Sam back to her mother. They've been paying my tuition, but not my books, and I've been working down at my aunt's house to earn the money to pay for them. I've looked into financial aid and was denied. It takes $300+ every quarter to maintain this schedule, and that's about as much as I can make each break. HOW do you expect me to pay the bill so some quack can sit there, dehumanize her, slap a label on her and try to sell us drugs? Honestly, I don't see it on my budget.

Sam's mother isn't much better off. She works in electronics at Best Buy (last I checked, I admit I've been paying scant attention to her employment) and while she's certainly better of financially than I am she doesn't have much money to spare either. I doubt I could convince her to pay for "therapy" for Sam, especially since she has no more faith in their mystical nonsense than I do, but if you really want I can try talking to her about it.

Hey, I'll even see if there's a psychologist in this area willing to work for free! After all, I enjoy the sound of derisive laughter!

 

[cybele]

Curious question, what exactly are you expecting us to say?

You put forth multiple issues, yet with every attempt someone comes up with as a solution you either give a lengthy solution as to why it won't work, or a story that makes about as much sense as a palm tree in the alps. So what do you want to hear?

 

[Avianmosquito]

Curious question, what exactly are you expecting us to say?

You put forth multiple issues, yet with every attempt someone comes up with as a solution you either give a lengthy solution as to why it won't work, or a story that makes about as much sense as a palm tree in the alps. So what do you want to hear?

What do you expect me to do, when every "solution" given (and actually, there haven't been many) is the same, and more importantly a thing that will never and can never help anybody, and takes money I don't have?

You seem to forget, I only asked a single question when I made this thread, and it has long since been answered. I didn't ask for anything else. I'll carry on any conversation all day and night, but I didn't ask for this one.

 

[cybele]

Actually, Andrew gave you a large multitude of different suggestions and you shot every single one down, quite rudely. You're not going to get a magical solution if you don't try anything, or even consider trying anything before scoffing.

I beg to differ on the 'never help anyone' stance, but that's your issue. Fortunately for many others, they go into counselling sessions with much more open minds and end up with wonderful results. I can personally attest to that, drug free and not dehumanised and getting the support I need knowing that I had dug myself deep enough to know that I couldn't 'fix' myself alone.

 

[Avianmosquito]

Actually, Andrew gave you a large multitude of different suggestions.

I beg to differ on the 'never help anyone' stance, but that's your issue. Fortunately for many others, they go into counselling sessions with much more open minds and end up with wonderful results. I can personally attest to that, drug free and not dehumanised and getting the support I need knowing that I had dug myself deep enough to know that I couldn't 'fix' myself alone.

Uh-huh. "Oh, preacha man, I'm blind and cannot see!" *Pushes chest* "I'mma healed! I can see again! Hallelujah!" Sure, there are people who really believe talking to a man who wants you to give them money will solve their issues, but there are also people who believe in faith-healing, and people who believe that drinking colloidal silver will improve their health. (Even AFTER it turns them blue.)

Look, I know what I'm doing about Sam's schooling right now. I'm going to use this suspension to my advantage, and push to get her into online schooling for this year without removing the option for her to return to school next year. That way, she'll try it and if it doesn't work out I haven't done any damage. Alright? But I'm not going to go take her to a grifter in a suit because the internet tells me to.

 

[cybele]

You know, you can get your point cross without being sarcastic and nasty.

No one said you had to, it was offered as a solution because not everyone has a chip on their shoulder about the psychological community.

 

[Avianmosquito]

You know, you can get your point cross without being sarcastic and nasty.

No one said you had to, it was offered as a solution because not everyone has a chip on their shoulder about the psychological community.

I think I'm about done with this discussion. I'm NOT taking her to a psychologist. End of story.

 

[cybele]

Again, no one said you had to.

 

[mom2many]

Alright, let's just accept this premise for the moment.
I object to labelling her, but this works for now.

You know labels aren't always a bad thing. They can actually help and open up a lot of resources they may not have existed before hand.

A psychologist is about as likely to solve a psychological problem as a doctor is to cure cancer, for the same reason. Which is to say "There's no chance at all, because there's no money in it." They aren't trying to solve your problems, just to make you feel better while still having them, so you have a reason to keep coming back and forking over their ridiculous fee for as long as humanly possible. This is reinforced by their ridiculous Skinner-box appointment structure. Nobody is less likely to solve your problems than somebody who has a vested financial interest in their continuance.

She doesn't need a psychologist, she needs a psychiatrist. Thank God this wasn't my attitude or my son would be walking around in his manic, hallucination state. He has Bi-Polar, you do not have to tell me how it works. I KNOW how it works. I've been dealing with it for almost 3 years now, and yes you go back and forth, that's to make sure the treatment plan is right and doing what it needs to do. So do you never go to a doctor either?

On that note, how exactly do you think I can afford such a bill? Are you aware of my financial situation? It is not pretty. I had to talk my grandparents into moving back into my house and paying my bills because I simply don't have the money for them since I lost my job. (Again.) I haven't been able to get a new job, not for lack of trying mind you, and my grandparents demanded I go back to school or they're going to kick me out and send Sam back to her mother. They've been paying my tuition, but not my books, and I've been working down at my aunt's house to earn the money to pay for them. I've looked into financial aid and was denied. It takes $300+ every quarter to maintain this schedule, and that's about as much as I can make each break. HOW do you expect me to pay the bill so some quack can sit there, dehumanize her, slap a label on her and try to sell us drugs? Honestly, I don't see it on my budget.

How do you pay? You do whatever you HAVE to do, to pay for it. If your situation is as dire as you say it is. She would qualify for CHIP, state medical, not ideal, but better then nothing. It has a high qualifying amount, no excuses. My son's meds alone cost over $1000 a month, not including appointments. While he qualifies for state aid, he is on our insurance. Sorry but your excuses are not valid, and that's all you have is excuses.

Sam's mother isn't much better off. She works in electronics at Best Buy (last I checked, I admit I've been paying scant attention to her employment) and while she's certainly better of financially than I am she doesn't have much money to spare either. I doubt I could convince her to pay for "therapy" for Sam, especially since she has no more faith in their mystical nonsense than I do, but if you really want I can try talking to her about it.

Is there nobody in this girls life who gives a damn beyond having one excuse after another? Jesus it's like a bad B movie.

Hey, I'll even see if there's a psychologist in this area willing to work for free! After all, I enjoy the sound of derisive laughter!

CHIP...CHIP...CHIP.



Now let me make myself very clear here. We have offer suggestions, we have offered advice. You don't like it, move on, but I guarantee you will get the same advice somewhere else. However, be rude or snippy to another member and I will ban you.