Father slaps Daughter!...

[NancyM]

and yet, MomoJA, here is what he says about his own actions that day:

So it seems that he knew it was not a hysterical reaction, but a thoughtful and deliberate decision.



How many abused children or battered woman might endure a lifetime of abuse and never find the courage to press charges even once? How many abused people find excuses for their abusers and attempt to protect them? I am not saying this man abused his daughter - we do not know the real full story, only his side of it. But it's <I>possible</I> and this is why, once he has admitted the charges, it doesn't really matter if she retracted herself.

Slapping someone in the face is illegal because it is assault.
It really should not matter whether you do it to your own child or to another adult. It's still not acceptable, and I don't see how one can defend that it should not be made illegal, simply because it's your child?

What I am also interested in, is what lead this adolescent to run to the police and press charges, especially if it truly was the one and only time his dad ever did this. Strange. Why was the father-daughter relationship strained to that extent in the first place?

You said exactly what I was going to reply Parentistic, lol. It surprises me that many people can't see the difference between hitting your child and hitting a stranger. I understand that good loving parents don't beat their children when they mean 'spank' but we can see just from this board alone how each parent views 'spanking' in different ways. What some define as a harmless spank, may actually be an abusive beating. This is the danger with spanking this is why the law has to intervene because many people go overboard when they are angry.

It would be interesting to me if each person who chooses to discipline their child by hitting them or spanking them, would describe the ritual. What physical position is their child in when you spank them. Is it a bare bottom, Are you using your hand or an object, do you hit them on the butt, legs, arms, face, head, ears, nose, stomach, WHERE? Are you angry when you 'spank' them. Do you just lash out and hit them anywhere? Closed fist, open hand, swat, do you speak to them when your spanking? Is your child crying or asking you to stop?? How may hits are enough?

I don't understand spanking so maybe those of you who do 'spank' can explain this to me.

MomoJo I too have worked in Schools and other formal institutions where children learn or live, and where the law requires you to be fingerprinted, I understand why it's done and I appreciate it.

However, when someone is falsely accused of a misconduct and can prove it by having a court dismiss the charges....that person should not have a problem getting his job back especially if he or she had an impeccable record of 15 years. Still hard for me to believe there isn't more going on.

 

[NancyM]

This took place in Great Britain, so I can't speak authoritatively about it, but here, in my state, to work around children, we have to be fingerprinted and have an FBI background check. I just did it for the 5th time, each time I've changed teaching jobs. Even substitute teachers cannot work for our district if they have any record of assault, even, sometimes, if it was dismissed. It's called "zero tolerance."

I don't want to come off sounding harsh, but it is exactly this sort of response, what I call the flypaper effect, that makes these incidences even worse. Once accused, no matter what he does, he only proves himself guilty.

I'm sorry to sound harsh but I don't exactly feel sorry for him. Jimeuw put the post out there for people to respond to. When you tell people that you smacked your daughters face to shock her into realization..your going to get responses from people who disagree with what you did. As well as people who think it was justified.

I disagree and I also think that sometimes the flypaper effect is a good thing.

 

[NancyM]

This is what I mean by my previous post. But also, he wasn't denying that he slapped her. He never denied it, so no one was accusing him of something he claimed he didn't do. I imagine he didn't think he needed a lawyer because he knew it was a hysterical reaction and would be dismissed as such, as it would have been if people were reasonable about this sort of thing. His daughter retracted her charges, but the damage was done. She never accused him of more than the once incident. I don't think she was lying, even if you believe he was.

When your arrested in the US you offered a lawyer because you committed a crime. Criminals are stupid and usually hang themselves by talking to much and incriminating them selves...the law provides you the opportunity to have someone shut you up, and talk for you, so you don't spend unnecessary time in jail.

If you deny a lawyer it doesn't mean your not guilty of the crime, just means you denied yourself a lawyer. I don't know what he was thinking and I can't imagine for him, but if you get arrested and charged, you should accept legal counsel even if it was something he thought was probably going to get dismissed, you never know.

I don't live in England, so I can't speak for those laws but I know it's the same premise.

As for the daughter retracting her charge, how can she do that when he admitted hitting her?? It really doesn't make any sense. And why should she? Would you?

Children aren't allowed to drop charges. Not here anyway. Once they cry abuse, they can not drop the charges. WHY? because most children who are abused don't ever tell the law, and when they do they usually become afraid they may be separated from their families even if there life there was despicable they usually don't tell on their parents.

Abused children lie all the time.

I think there is more to this story, or to their life story perhaps. It just doesn't feel completely true to me. JMO

 

[parentastic]

the way people react when their own children are misbehaving or when they see their own children making bad decisions is completely different from how they behave when they see children they are instructing doing the same thing.

But <U><I>why</I></U> do they react differently in these two cases, MomoJA?

Even if you are not a teacher or coach or the like, you can see the way you tolerate the behavior of your nieces and nephews or neighbor's children and compare it to the way you tolerate your own children's behavior. It's night and day.

Indeed, it is. How come? Why would it be different?
<I>That</I> is what I am challenging people here on this thread.

But in addition, I'm reminded of the time a fully grown man whom I did not know grabbed me by the arm one Halloween night when I was 14 because there had been some vandalism in the neighborhood. He began dragging me a mile up the road to the guardhouse. (...) He began pushing me across the street by tapping me forcefully on my shoulders to punctuate each accusation. He asked my name. I told him. He said he would be pressing charges. And I went on my way. I made it home before completely breaking down. I was barely able to tell my dad what had happened through my sobs. I was <I>devastated</I>. I was <I>scared</I>. I was indignant. For years I felt embarrassed to see this man or his family members.

I am very, very deeply sorry to read you had to go through this.
And I appreciate the trust you displays to tell us and write about this event of your life, and the sincerity of letting us know how you felt at the time.

I hope you will not see this as presumptuous; I know nothing about you or how you went through this experience as a teen; however, I can tell you that it is not uncommon for the human mind to repress that kind of memory, to hide it so that we don't have to deal with it, so it might make sense that you forgot it until today. It's a common defense mechanism.

After finding out who the man was through several phone calls, my father spoke to him. He did not back down for several months. He never pursued charges against me - I was not in the wrong, he was.

Hell yes, he was! Your parents could have pressed charge of assault against him, actually!

But my point of all this was that (...) when I've thought of it in the past it has only been with shock at his behavior, not any soul cringing on my part) I suppose I could have been so affected that I never recovered, but I think that would have been insipidly self-indulgent, and my parents would never have tolerated that sort of self-agrandizing self pity. (Something I'm thankful for.)

What you make of this experience is yours, and yours only, so I cannot say. But what I <I>do</I> know is that there is nothing trivial about being <I>devastated</I> and <I>scared</I>, and these emotions were real and unfair and you did not deserve them - no child should ever have to live this from an adult. I am glad you recovered, and I think that children are incredibly resilient and manage to recover quite well from a lot of difficult experience. Still, you are lucky it did not go further than this, and lucky it did not impact you. It would not have been self-aggrandizing self pity, I think, because I don't think it is <I>possible</I> for children to <I>choose </I>not to feel the trauma, when they live a traumatic event.

In any events, the shock and the emotions children live through act of violence from adults, either from their parents or from strangers, are very real and very difficult, and I don't see why they should be tolerated more because they are done by parents than by any other adult. So back to my question: <I>what is the difference?</I>

 

[sweetguest]

I think for children bettermen some time should be strict with them... but i am not in fevor of slapping or beating children.......

 

[MomoJA]

But <U><I>why</I></U> do they react differently in these two cases, MomoJA?



Indeed, it is. How come? Why would it be different?
<I>That</I> is what I am challenging people here on this thread.



I am very, very deeply sorry to read you had to go through this.
And I appreciate the trust you displays to tell us and write about this event of your life, and the sincerity of letting us know how you felt at the time.

I hope you will not see this as presumptuous; I know nothing about you or how you went through this experience as a teen; however, I can tell you that it is not uncommon for the human mind to repress that kind of memory, to hide it so that we don't have to deal with it, so it might make sense that you forgot it until today. It's a common defense mechanism.


Hell yes, he was! Your parents could have pressed charge of assault against him, actually!



What you make of this experience is yours, and yours only, so I cannot say. But what I <I>do</I> know is that there is nothing trivial about being <I>devastated</I> and <I>scared</I>, and these emotions were real and unfair and you did not deserve them - no child should ever have to live this from an adult. I am glad you recovered, and I think that children are incredibly resilient and manage to recover quite well from a lot of difficult experience. Still, you are lucky it did not go further than this, and lucky it did not impact you. It would not have been self-aggrandizing self pity, I think, because I don't think it is <I>possible</I> for children to <I>choose </I>not to feel the trauma, when they live a traumatic event.

In any events, the shock and the emotions children live through act of violence from adults, either from their parents or from strangers, are very real and very difficult, and I don't see why they should be tolerated more because they are done by parents than by any other adult. So back to my question: <I>what is the difference?</I>

I hesitate saying this because it's not what this forum is about, but I don't think I can explain it to you until you have your own child. I love my nieces and nephews. The love I feel for them surprised me in its intensity and the difference from what I felt for other children in my life. But that love cannot compare with what I feel for my child. The difference in how we tolerate our children's behavior is all to do with that. So is the difference in how they respond to the discipline from their parents.

As for what happened to me, it was wrong, no question. And we did consider pressing charges, but decided against it when he backed off. Of course it shouldn't have happened and his actions actually were and should be criminal, but it was not as devasting to my psyche as my first break up or the first rejection letter I got for a job. My point is, humans are resilient, unless you tell them they aren't. What doesn't destroy you makes you stronger.

As for this being a repressed memory, it wasn't. It's just that it happened so long ago and so much has happened in my life since then that I haven't thought about it in years. It's not like I never thought about it after it happened. I've told the story dozens of times in my life when comparing stories or as an example of certain behaviors, etc. I have other memories that took me years to talk about, such as a student trying to sexually assault me. I couldn't talk about that for about 10 years, but I recovered from that as well. Spanking SHOULD NOT be compared to these sorts of actions. They are NOTHING the same! These are criminal behaviors. Spanking is not.

And again, please don't be distracted into believing I condone slapping a child. I just don't think it should be a criminal offense. According to the laws you have quoted and support, IADad should be in jail for swatting his child. That's what I object to, and I cannot describe how vehemently I object to it. It is, excuse me, stupid. Hysterical and stupid. That is what I'm challenging people about on this thread. Not about the wisdom of spanking. The criminal prosecution of it.

 

[sweetguest]

Hi ......
You should check this blog... here some tips and advises that how you deal with teens ........
http://teenagerandparents.blogspot.com/</SIZE></SIZE>[/U]</U><i>[/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE]</i>[/URL]

 

[NancyM]

Thanks Sweetguest

I did take a look through the site you recommended and it was interesting and insightful.

 

[singledad]

I'm guessing it's that zero tolerance thing. I think everyone knows that he is not a threat to anyone, but the law is the law. A child reports a parent for "abuse," it is recorded, regardless of what happens before or after that. You have an assault record, you can't be around children. No allowances for extenuating circumstances are legally allowed. As long as the laws are written the way they are, no one can really be blamed for him losing his job. The laws would have to be ammended. Their hands are tied by the laws.

I find that sickening. Surely these laws are meant to protect children from abuse? But in this case, they made no attempt to protect the child in question. These cops are guilty of one of two things: Either they needlessly ruined an innocent mans career, or they sent a defenceless girl back to an abusive home, after she made an attempt to get help.

Either way, the law has failed to protect the citizens of the country, and that is sad beyond words.

 

[MomoJA]

MomoJo I too have worked in Schools and other formal institutions where children learn or live, and where the law requires you to be fingerprinted, I understand why it's done and I appreciate it.

However, when someone is falsely accused of a misconduct and can prove it by having a court dismiss the charges....that person should not have a problem getting his job back especially if he or she had an impeccable record of 15 years. Still hard for me to believe there isn't more going on.

But he wasn't falsely accused. That was my point. He slapped his daughter. You can say he is lying that it was the only time. You can say that she is lying. But he didn't feel he needed a lawyer, which was your initial question, because he wasn't denying it.

Now, maybe you think he should lose his job even in this circumstances. I can respect your opinion though I would completely disagree with it.

But please remember that this thread is not about whether spanking is good or bad parenting, but whether it should be criminal. Do you believe spanking should be criminal? Do you believe the parents on this forum who spank should be in jail? That's what I object to, and I have to admit, I have a very hard time respecting an opinion that they should.

Finally, though I've said it again and again I will say it one more time. I'm not arguing the merits of spanking. I'm arguing the ridiculousness of making it a criminal offense. I'll repeat something else I've said before. I think yelling at your children is worse than spanking them, but I'm betting we've all yelled at our children before just as I've yelled at my child before. I don't think I should be sent to jail for that, though. Not only would it be stupid and an hysterical overreaction, not only would it kill me to be taken from my child, it would also destroy her. So who would we be serving? The self-righteous, completely-removed-from-reality sensibilities of some narrow-minded fool. That's who.

 

[NancyM]

Quote by Jim McCullough"I felt that she didn't appreciate the seriousness of it. Simply grounding her wouldn't have proved the point. I felt she needed something to shock her.
"I was fully in control of my actions. I had no intention of causing her physical pain. I felt that she needed something to shock her. I slapped her across the face and the Jaffa cakes she was eating went flying across the garden".UNQUOTE


Momoja: if you were looking for a caretaker for your 4 yr old child would you hire this man after reading this on his resume? Honestly??



Do you believe slapping a person hard enough across the face enough to make Jaffa cakes in her hand 'FLY ACROSS' the garden is NOT PAINFUL?
he said he didn't want to cause her pain.



I'm not debating spanking here, but unfortunately I have known people to believe that slapping their child's face was a form of spanking.



What I've been saying all along and still trying to get across is: And why it should be criminal is:

What one person considers a beating, may be considered a spanking to another example: mom whipping child across legs with iron cord "only two times" considers that a spanking. That's the danger of allowing people to spank their kids, and that's why I agree with criminalizing it. Not everyone has enough control to stop after a gentle swat. Not everyone uses their hand.



When the laws are considered We're not talking about one incident of smacking your child, when this is considered, we're talking about making it a crime in an entire state full of a million different people with a million different ideas on how to raise a child and how to discipline him or her.

 

[parentastic]

MomoJA, let me ask you this:

According to you, should we remove from the law and de-criminaluze the act of slapping someone else in the face? Should it be made legal <I>for every body</I>?

If the answer is yes, would you care to elaborate why?

If the answer is no, and that it should olny be tolerated for parents, while it rains an assault for any other situation, would you care to explain why it should be different?

Let me be very clear in my question here. I <I>understand</I> that we love our children in a deep way that cannot be described or compared to any other relationship. I also agree that children will drive you crazy, triggers you more, that you had to endure years of sacrifice and that all emotionsare hightened. However, i still don't see why this would mean children have less rights than any other person.

Why do you think slapping an adult is a crime but slapping a child shouldn't be?

 

[singledad]

Nancy I get your point. You don't want to leave the judgement of where to draw the line between spanking and abuse up to individual parents. A very valid argument, indeed.

However - I see a few reasons why it would never achieve the ultimate objective of protecting children against abuse:

1) I don't believe that the line is between spanking and abuse. To go further - I don't believe that there is a discreet line. In fact, I believe that the people who believe that there are distinct boundaries that define abuse is as misguided as those who believe that there is a distinct boundary between physical and emotional abuse, or between physical and sexual abuse. The human psyche just isn't that simple. Full stop.

2) Laws against spanking aim to stop those parents who believe that inflicting serious pain is good for their children, right? Do you honestly believe that those parents will simply say, oh, ok. I'll just stop hurting my child and be nice instead? No. Either they will continue to spank in defiance of the law, or they will find alternative means to inflict pain. No, those parents who will make an effort to find more effective alternatives, will be the same ones who will stop at a light smack on the bum. It's a bit like bringing down the speed limit on a stretch of road, to stop people from breaking the speed limit. It's self-defeating.

AFAIK, "Child abuse" is already illegal in most countries - even those that allow spanking. What is needed isn't additional, draconian laws that will inevitable only affect the ones who don't need to be subjected to additional laws.

What is needed is a better understanding of what child abuse is. A good place to start would be to train and empower social workers to evaluate situations on a case-by-case basis. Social workers should understand that sometimes the most damaging forms of abuse, are the ones that are the hardest to see. Things like constantly ignoring a child, constantly belittling and/or criticizing a child, making a child feel unsafe and/or frightened, etc (eg. by threatening to send them away if they are naughty, or locking them in a closet, or exposing them to a violent environment like a father beating the mother, etc). They should be able to evaluated a child, and determine if the child is emotionally and psychologically healthy. That should be the determining factor, not some pre-determined list of actions that are allowed or not.

Defining "abuse" as a set of black-and-white rules, will only result in good, though human, parents being unfairly punished while thousands of abused children are left to suffer, simply because they don't fit the definition in the manual.

And if I was looking for a caretaker to look after my child in a one-on-one situation, I would not be looking at resumes. I would either use someone I know intimately (like an old friend) or I would look after her myself. Because, as I've said - some of the most damaging forms of abuse can't be seen that easily, and thus won't be on any resume. I'd be far more worried about those, than about a single case of bad judgment. If I was looking for a sports-coach (who should never be alone with my child in any case), I would be looking for someone who has proven himself over a period of time - yes, like the OP.

PS: I will give my opinion on the question asked by parentastic after MomoJA has had a chance to give hers. (Since the question was directed at her)

 

[parentastic]

Singledad, my question is really directed at anyone in the forum who wishes to answer, so feel free to pitch in. I asked MomoJA specifically because she has been very vocal and categoeic about the issue, using words like 'hysterical' and 'ridiculous', and so I am genuinly trying to understand her point of view.
I am trying to get at the bottom of the underlying, hidden assumptions - to bring them out in the open so that they can be discussed, clear of any judgment.

 

[MomoJA]

Momoja: if you were looking for a caretaker for your 4 yr old child would you hire this man after reading this on his resume? Honestly??

Nancy, I don't know how to make this clear. I'm not arguing spanking. I'm arguing making it a criminal, jailable offense.

Would I want someone who yells at their kids babysitting my child. NO!

Would I want those parents arrested? H*ll NO!

 

[MomoJA]

MomoJA, let me ask you this:

According to you, should we remove from the law and de-criminaluze the act of slapping someone else in the face? Should it be made legal <I>for every body</I>?

If the answer is yes, would you care to elaborate why?

If the answer is no, and that it should olny be tolerated for parents, while it rains an assault for any other situation, would you care to explain why it should be different?

Let me be very clear in my question here. I <I>understand</I> that we love our children in a deep way that cannot be described or compared to any other relationship. I also agree that children will drive you crazy, triggers you more, that you had to endure years of sacrifice and that all emotionsare hightened. However, i still don't see why this would mean children have less rights than any other person.
Why do you think slapping an adult is a crime but slapping a child shouldn't be?

Ah, the debating technique of couching things in a way that puts the opposing opinion in indefensible terms.

f I could spend the rest of my life trying to explain it I couldn’t do it. If I could fill the entire Internet with a description of the difference, it would not be possible, even if I knew how. But I will give a very superficial and small answer and the biggest casualty of my response AND any counter-response will be SUBTLETIES. But here goes. </SIZE>[/FONT]

Let me start with a childishly simplistic example, though really no more simplistic than comparing slapping an adult with spanking a child. I don’t think any adult should be able to put another in time-out or ground him or take away his texting privileges or decide what he should and should not eat or choose his toothpaste for him and force him to brush his teeth if he doesn’t want to or restrict him in any way. While that is somewhat flippant, it sort of begins to get to the juxte of the difference, though it is only the dot of the intersection between the lines that divide the realm of how adults should and do relate to each other and the way that parents should and do relate to their children, the people they are responsible for, the lives they are attempting to mold, the beings they are preparing for life outside of their protection. </SIZE>[/FONT]

I am not, any more than I decide to be, responsible for my neighbor legally, morally, financially, physically, emotionally, and in every other way that I am responsible for my child whether I like it or not, and I like it! I am responsible for what goes in her mouth and how she cleans up after it comes out the other end. I am responsible for motivating her and encouraging her and guiding her to become confident, considerate, caring, and respectful of others and every other thing that I know will make her a happier person when she leaves my arms in before-I-know-it. I am trying my best for her and I resent that you think you have the right to dictate to me how to do that, that essentially you think you have the right to come into my home, look over my shoulder and allow this but disallow that and then walk away patting yourself on the back while my responsibility remains mine. How DARE you, I feel. That is MY child and I will protect her even from your good intentions. AND I DON’T SPANK! And no matter how much you deny it, that is what you are doing by criminalizing spanking. No one knows what’s in the hearts and minds of people who spank nor the children who are spanked, and I find it a bit arrogant to presume you do and that you can sit in judgment of them.</SIZE>[/FONT]

You may believe absolutely with no room for doubt that you are right and that spanking can never be more than an angry, self-indulgent, vicious attack on a child, but I don’t trust the opinions of people who are that absolute, especially in light of the fact that generation after generation since the beginning of man has included spanking as a PARENTING technique and man has not come to a screeching halt and man has continued to innovate and create and become happy, well-adjusted, successful, contributing members of society. You might know better than every person throughout history who has spanked the children they love in an attempt to parent and they might have been criminally wrong, but I don’t think it is that simple. (You might, just might be wrong!) I can respect that you think spanking is wrong or at the very least counter-productive, (I might even agree with you) and try to educate against it. There are countless books about countless parenting techniques written in support of this one and denunciation of that one. I would say that parents who are too permissive do more damage than those who spank, but I wouldn’t support imprisoning them. </SIZE>[/FONT]

The vast majority, the VAST, VAST majority of parents who spank do just that – not physically abuse their children. Criminalizing spanking does not stop that. Abusive parents will be abusive and we have laws on the books for that. And there are many ways of being abusive and physical abuse is probably among the least of them. Verbal abuse is an abusive form of screaming among other things. Shall we arrest every parent who has ever screamed? My guess is there would be no one left to parent. </SIZE>[/FONT]

 

[MomoJA]

Singledad, my question is really directed at anyone in the forum who wishes to answer, so feel free to pitch in. I asked MomoJA specifically because she has been very vocal and categoeic about the issue, using words like 'hysterical' and 'ridiculous', and so I am genuinly trying to understand her point of view.
I am trying to get at the bottom of the underlying, hidden assumptions - to bring them out in the open so that they can be discussed, clear of any judgment.

Do you not think making spanking a criminal offense is categoric? I believe that is the definition of the word.

Your assumptions may not be hidden, but they are underlying and I think they cloud your thinking on this matter. That is my sincere feeling about anyone who believes that spanking should be a criminal offense.

 

[lodestone123]

I am not all in favour of hitting a child - it gets you no where no matter what you think and breaks a trust. It is also often done in anger and opens you up to some dangerous repercussions. Discuss rules and consequences with your kids - be clear - post them on the fridge - even ask them to set the consequences for each offence. I think you will be surprised at their responses. Even yelling at a kid is not constructive more a lack of your own control - and a failure in most cases. You can manage a childs behaviour with out yelling or hitting. Should a parent be charged if they do hit though? It is a very gray area and is too complext for this small space I think!

 

[MomoJA]

1) I don't believe that the line is between spanking and abuse. To go further - I don't believe that there is a discreet line.

Exactly!

 

[singledad]

As I expected, MomoJA has posted my answer for me

Here's the main reason why I object to criminalising spanking:
The more you define "abuse"an and the more detail you go into regarding what is allowed and what not, the more you dis-empower social workers and law enforcement to evaluated cases individually. And because one can never fully define what constitutes abuse, the more you reduce social workers to simply following rules, the more abused children will slip through the cracks in your definition, and be left to fend for themselves.