I was spanked a lot, at home and at school and no way did I manage to add up 9 spankings a week. 3 on a bad week, maybe, but that would be really pushing it and mostly made up of rulers over the knuckles in school. More like once a fortnight, if that even.
SPANKING revisited...
- Thread starter bssage
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Concerning the "proven threshold of harm": In a number of posts, bssage has taken the position that the scientific evidence may show that 2+ spankings per month is harmful but that still allows the possibility that a parent can spank at a low rate without causing harm. And, I think there are some researchers who support the idea that moderate spanking is still OK.
In a number of posts, I have been trying to take the line of argument that even if 2 spanking per month is not harmful, it still follows that such a limited low rate intervention cannot be an important tool, and that parents will not be able to comply to that limit because studies show that that under-recall their spanking rate by a factor of 6 if they don't keep written records.
In this context, by "proven threshold of harm" I meant the threshold above which the scientific evidence is convincing, i.e. 2 per month.
In a number of posts, I have been trying to take the line of argument that even if 2 spanking per month is not harmful, it still follows that such a limited low rate intervention cannot be an important tool, and that parents will not be able to comply to that limit because studies show that that under-recall their spanking rate by a factor of 6 if they don't keep written records.
In this context, by "proven threshold of harm" I meant the threshold above which the scientific evidence is convincing, i.e. 2 per month.
I don't buy the study you posted. I suspect the difference between recall and what they consider to be the true number may be due to definitions of spanking. But I don't know, because they don't give enough information.tadamsmar said:
Here's the kicker - if you agree that spanking your child less than twice a month is harmless - how is it any of your business if somebody wants to do it? We can argue till kingdom comes whether or not it is effective, but as long as the children aren't harmed, its none of your business.
Incidentally - I don't believe that spanking is effective either, but for logical reasons that have nothing to do with the insane mathematical argument you are trying to make. The difference is that I don't believe that it is necessarily harmful, and therefor I will leave them to it. None of my business
Spanking is related to something call the Coercion Cycle or Coercive Cycle:
http://www.pendletonpsych.com/doc/parent-child-coercive-cycle.pdf[/url]
Parents and kids tend to find that various sorts of coercive behaviors have an immediate effect on the other party. This results in a situation where both parent and child (in effect) teach each other coercive behaviors. But the Coercive Cycle leads to worsening of child behavior and loss of parental control.
(Note that this teaching is not intentional, it just happens naturally. It takes an conscious skilled effort by the parent to avoid this teaching.)
The cycle can be broken by the parent if the parent is willing to learn and apply alternative methods that work, methods that the kid's immediate behavior will not teach them to use.
For instance, ignoring is effective on some types of unwanted behavior, but the immediate effect of ignoring tends to be a short-term increase in the unwanted behavior (the extinction burst). Therefore the kid's immediate behavior will never teach the parent to use ignoring.
http://www.pendletonpsych.com/doc/parent-child-coercive-cycle.pdf[/url]
Parents and kids tend to find that various sorts of coercive behaviors have an immediate effect on the other party. This results in a situation where both parent and child (in effect) teach each other coercive behaviors. But the Coercive Cycle leads to worsening of child behavior and loss of parental control.
(Note that this teaching is not intentional, it just happens naturally. It takes an conscious skilled effort by the parent to avoid this teaching.)
The cycle can be broken by the parent if the parent is willing to learn and apply alternative methods that work, methods that the kid's immediate behavior will not teach them to use.
For instance, ignoring is effective on some types of unwanted behavior, but the immediate effect of ignoring tends to be a short-term increase in the unwanted behavior (the extinction burst). Therefore the kid's immediate behavior will never teach the parent to use ignoring.
Concerning the issue that it is none of my business if a parent engages in ineffective spanking if it is harmless. If I encourage a parent to give up spanking, then, according to your beliefs, I have done something that is harmless. According to you, it is none of <U>your</U> business if I do something harmless.
PS: But, come to think of it, it's harmless for you to tell me it's none of my business, so...
PS: But, come to think of it, it's harmless for you to tell me it's none of my business, so...
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I think you asked a good question earlier Tad.
<I>You seem to think you responded to my argument. I am saying there is no point in doing something unless you have convincing evidence it works. Even if it's harmless, there is no point in doing it.</I>
So I'll explain my reasons. First let me clarify that all my children are over the age where I would spank them. BUT.. I have and there are times I wish I could again. I can only remember a handful of times that they got them.
I agree that there are good ways to teach children to listen, be good, and to grow. Most of it is through being consistent with what you expect, by a lot of repetitive persistence, and setting the example of what you want. I tried to incorporate in their lives examples of who I wanted them to respect, ideas that I wanted them to consider, and give clear cut boundaries on what I would not tolerate and gave them the reason why. We talked alot. For everything that I pushed, all but one of them has become or are becoming someone I'm super proud of. The one I'm still pushing there with both hands and feet and praying a bit. YOU CAN TEACH through these methods. They can learn.
NOW.. that being said, its a tough road and takes a lot of patience and understanding from parents that one lesson is not enough. It takes 10-100x of explaining to a little one why he should share, or why homework has to be done before he plays.. or that the room needs to be picked up before bedtime. They learn it.. but over time. And that was okay with me.. for things like that.
Spankings work too. The response that I received from a spanking however, was immediate. I don't think that I ever had to repeat those lessons. I reserved them for things that I needed an immediate compliance on. On things I was not willing to take a chance on them repeating. Drew, sticking his fork in the light socket.. him walking out to the pool without asking... Adam riding his bike on the roadway.. alone.. Jess leaving the "safe" area to play where she couldn't hear me calling her. Things we'd talked about already, that were dangerous to them to do, and that I wasn't willing to take a chance of them doing it again when my back was turned. Somethings are not worth risking their life for the second less hurtful lesson. When you say its not effective, I know that it's not true. I know for a fact that the few times they earned that lesson, it worked because they never received a 2nd spanking for the same offense. In all honesty, they've all only gotten a few a piece to begin with.. but learned from them when I told them that "this rule is to keep you safe" that was the clue that by breaking it a whooping was forth coming and they just didn't test those boundaries too often.
For me.. I'd do it all again the same way. I never laid a hand on those children because I was angry. I never spanked them in a fit of emotions. It was just like the other punishments.. a lesson I needed them to know.. immediately. My youngest is still on the earth because of a spanking he had.. there is no doubt in my mind about that. I'm not advocating for other parents to beat the snot out of their children. But I am telling you that a spanking from time to time when its a lesson that you can not take a chance on them forgetting..well it worked for me. I'd do it all again the same way. Regardless of statistics and expert opinions. In fact.. I have 22 years of experience in parenting.. so I just may be an expert!
<I>You seem to think you responded to my argument. I am saying there is no point in doing something unless you have convincing evidence it works. Even if it's harmless, there is no point in doing it.</I>
So I'll explain my reasons. First let me clarify that all my children are over the age where I would spank them. BUT.. I have and there are times I wish I could again. I can only remember a handful of times that they got them.
I agree that there are good ways to teach children to listen, be good, and to grow. Most of it is through being consistent with what you expect, by a lot of repetitive persistence, and setting the example of what you want. I tried to incorporate in their lives examples of who I wanted them to respect, ideas that I wanted them to consider, and give clear cut boundaries on what I would not tolerate and gave them the reason why. We talked alot. For everything that I pushed, all but one of them has become or are becoming someone I'm super proud of. The one I'm still pushing there with both hands and feet and praying a bit. YOU CAN TEACH through these methods. They can learn.
NOW.. that being said, its a tough road and takes a lot of patience and understanding from parents that one lesson is not enough. It takes 10-100x of explaining to a little one why he should share, or why homework has to be done before he plays.. or that the room needs to be picked up before bedtime. They learn it.. but over time. And that was okay with me.. for things like that.
Spankings work too. The response that I received from a spanking however, was immediate. I don't think that I ever had to repeat those lessons. I reserved them for things that I needed an immediate compliance on. On things I was not willing to take a chance on them repeating. Drew, sticking his fork in the light socket.. him walking out to the pool without asking... Adam riding his bike on the roadway.. alone.. Jess leaving the "safe" area to play where she couldn't hear me calling her. Things we'd talked about already, that were dangerous to them to do, and that I wasn't willing to take a chance of them doing it again when my back was turned. Somethings are not worth risking their life for the second less hurtful lesson. When you say its not effective, I know that it's not true. I know for a fact that the few times they earned that lesson, it worked because they never received a 2nd spanking for the same offense. In all honesty, they've all only gotten a few a piece to begin with.. but learned from them when I told them that "this rule is to keep you safe" that was the clue that by breaking it a whooping was forth coming and they just didn't test those boundaries too often.
For me.. I'd do it all again the same way. I never laid a hand on those children because I was angry. I never spanked them in a fit of emotions. It was just like the other punishments.. a lesson I needed them to know.. immediately. My youngest is still on the earth because of a spanking he had.. there is no doubt in my mind about that. I'm not advocating for other parents to beat the snot out of their children. But I am telling you that a spanking from time to time when its a lesson that you can not take a chance on them forgetting..well it worked for me. I'd do it all again the same way. Regardless of statistics and expert opinions. In fact.. I have 22 years of experience in parenting.. so I just may be an expert!
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I really dont know why I am responding at all. But is there one single thing that indicates this claim is true?tadamsmar said:
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Mom2all, I have my doubts that one spanking is reliable at causing 100% (or near 100%) elimination of an unwanted behavior. I don't know if there has been in research on that specific idea. The sources I read tend to take the position that spanking is not particularly effective, but I have never dug into the details of the research studies.
Typically, statistical hypothesis test is necessary to convince me of something. But, of course, one is not always available and we have to go on our observations.
I spanked my daughter a few times to try to get her to not sleep on the balcony outside of our bedroom. It was dangerous because she might roll down the stairs. One spanking did not work in this case. I don't recall that all the spanking I did worked in this case. I gave up spanking when one of my lunch buddies who was a PhD psychologist told me that kids had a way of blocking out the pain of spanking (also the guy looked shocked when I mentioned that I was spanking).
PS: I have been encouraged to learn more about attachment parenting from interactions with Parentastic. Now I think I could have probably should have opened the door to the bedroom and let my daughter sleep on the floor (or on a cot) in the bedroom where it was safe. I can now see that an attachment drive was involved in her sleeping on the balcony, and perhaps is should have been respected. She had slept on a cot in our bedroom closet for a while after birth. Perhaps we were brainwash by the Ferber culture, huh?
Typically, statistical hypothesis test is necessary to convince me of something. But, of course, one is not always available and we have to go on our observations.
I spanked my daughter a few times to try to get her to not sleep on the balcony outside of our bedroom. It was dangerous because she might roll down the stairs. One spanking did not work in this case. I don't recall that all the spanking I did worked in this case. I gave up spanking when one of my lunch buddies who was a PhD psychologist told me that kids had a way of blocking out the pain of spanking (also the guy looked shocked when I mentioned that I was spanking).
PS: I have been encouraged to learn more about attachment parenting from interactions with Parentastic. Now I think I could have probably should have opened the door to the bedroom and let my daughter sleep on the floor (or on a cot) in the bedroom where it was safe. I can now see that an attachment drive was involved in her sleeping on the balcony, and perhaps is should have been respected. She had slept on a cot in our bedroom closet for a while after birth. Perhaps we were brainwash by the Ferber culture, huh?
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Bssage, you say you don't advocate spanking. In my view, not advocating spanking would look like this:
Instead, here is what you have said:
This brings to mind the Categorical Imperative that the philosopher Kant put forward as an ethical principle:bssage said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_imperative
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I probably got the 2 times a month threshold from research like this:
http://humansciences.okstate.edu/facultystaff/Larzelere/CritiqueStraus.html[/url]
Larzlere mentions <26 per year, roughly equal to twice a month.
Note that I am not meaning to advocate the position that twice a month is harmless, I argue that a method that can only be used twice a month is useless.
Heck, I regularly use certain kid-influencing actions (positive attention, encouragement, active listening feedback, ignoring) as often as twice a minute or more.
http://humansciences.okstate.edu/facultystaff/Larzelere/CritiqueStraus.html[/url]
Larzlere mentions <26 per year, roughly equal to twice a month.
Note that I am not meaning to advocate the position that twice a month is harmless, I argue that a method that can only be used twice a month is useless.
Heck, I regularly use certain kid-influencing actions (positive attention, encouragement, active listening feedback, ignoring) as often as twice a minute or more.
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tadamsmar: Mom2all, I have my doubts that one spanking is reliable at causing 100% (or near 100%) elimination of an unwanted behavior. I don't know if there has been in research on that specific idea. The sources I read tend to take the position that spanking is not particularly effective, but I have never dug into the details of the research studies.
Typically, statistical hypothesis test is necessary to convince me of something. But, of course, one is not always available and we have to go
Here is my study on the matter. Twice in 1 day my 3 year old walked by the pool. (something he'd been taught not to do without asking first) We talked about it, timed out it, and then he walked by it again. On the 3rd trip by, we talked about it, then I spanked his butt. In the years that followed, I never had to remind him again. He'd start heading that way.. and then you could see him literally freeze in place... and turn around to come and ask. That was one spank.
My son removing his safety plug and sticking a fork in the socket... that happened only once too. I believe he was someone around 11 when he finally stopped asking if he could plug something in. ( PS. Parents of little one, he was literally 5 feet away from me when he did this.. me cooking and him coloring in the floor near me... it happened in a second.. I had just looked at him!)
There are others.. bikes on the road, playing with a lighter and things like that.. but literally, they happened once. I've of been dead of a heart attack by now if that was a daily occurrence or even monthly.
There are those that say that they continue to do unwanted behavior, but hide it better. I only spanked for dangerous things. The fact that they are all still here, (Thank the heavens) , and none have come near to drowning, been electrocuted, been hit by a car, or any other such horror, I'll think I still stick with my experience.
If I could have afforded a 24 nanny, who was always my second set of eyes and stayed awake when I slept.. perhaps I'd of went a different method. But maybe not... I just didn't have the luxury.
Typically, statistical hypothesis test is necessary to convince me of something. But, of course, one is not always available and we have to go
Here is my study on the matter. Twice in 1 day my 3 year old walked by the pool. (something he'd been taught not to do without asking first) We talked about it, timed out it, and then he walked by it again. On the 3rd trip by, we talked about it, then I spanked his butt. In the years that followed, I never had to remind him again. He'd start heading that way.. and then you could see him literally freeze in place... and turn around to come and ask. That was one spank.
My son removing his safety plug and sticking a fork in the socket... that happened only once too. I believe he was someone around 11 when he finally stopped asking if he could plug something in. ( PS. Parents of little one, he was literally 5 feet away from me when he did this.. me cooking and him coloring in the floor near me... it happened in a second.. I had just looked at him!
) There are others.. bikes on the road, playing with a lighter and things like that.. but literally, they happened once. I've of been dead of a heart attack by now if that was a daily occurrence or even monthly.
There are those that say that they continue to do unwanted behavior, but hide it better. I only spanked for dangerous things. The fact that they are all still here, (Thank the heavens) , and none have come near to drowning, been electrocuted, been hit by a car, or any other such horror, I'll think I still stick with my experience.
If I could have afforded a 24 nanny, who was always my second set of eyes and stayed awake when I slept.. perhaps I'd of went a different method. But maybe not... I just didn't have the luxury.
You were using a counter-productive time-out procedure.You say you talked to him about it and put him in time out. The first step in an effective time-out procedure is:
If you had a longer talk than this , then you were sabotaging the time-out process and causing the unwanted behavior to be more likely, not less likely in the future.
(Not to say that long talks about the matter are not a good idea at a different time.)
Eliminate hazards, avoid pools without lifeguards, teach a kid to swim early, supervise. But I know it's impossible to eliminate all hazards.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200109/why-our-kids-are-out-control?page=3[/url]
If you had a longer talk than this , then you were sabotaging the time-out process and causing the unwanted behavior to be more likely, not less likely in the future.
(Not to say that long talks about the matter are not a good idea at a different time.)
Eliminate hazards, avoid pools without lifeguards, teach a kid to swim early, supervise. But I know it's impossible to eliminate all hazards.
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tadamsmar said:
Of course I understand having a lengthy talk with a 3 year old would have him licking the chair arm.. I kept talks on their level. I'm a 911 operator.. NO ONE can eliminate ALL hazards. I own a pool.. can't afford to hire a lifeguard, He had swimming lessons... unfortunately when a child's head weighs more than their body and they have no fat.. they sink like a rock, which he did. By six, he was a fish. HE STILL COULDN'T get in the pool without asking, even if I was sitting outside. I was never concerned about him drowning when I was outside with him, but rather if he found a way out when I wasn't there. I do supervise.. but parents sleep, take showers, change the laundry, poop and on occasion sneak off with the other parent for a kiss in the kitchen. 2 minutes is enough for a child to stick a fork in a light socket. Hell.. I was in the room with him coloring between flipping the pork chops when he done that.. and they had those wonderful child safety plugs in them..they worked great btw
SO no.. I'm still not changing my mind on this issue... safety concerns were not a "We don't drown in the pool" walk away moment.Highlighting this.Mom2all said:
Seriously, when their life is in serious danger it is NOT the time to have a soft, quiet learning moment. You can revise that later.
Like my story earlier with Lux and the fire, our backyard was starting to burn, it was going to be at the house very soon, it was not the time to sit down with her and say "How do you feel about the fire Luxie?" "Now you know that fires are not safe, don't you?" "I understand that you love your toys very much, but sweetheart the house is almost on fire"
If I didn't give her a quick swat to startle her into attention, both of us could have died, been in hospital with serious burns or goodness knows what else.
Now, almost four years later, she doesn't look back on that and think "My evil mother hit me" she has actually said "Wow, I was really really stupid, we could have died"
Whatever. I"m done with this debate. It isn't a debate anymore, its one person trying from all different angles to "discourage" parents, several of whose children are already past the age of spanking, from spanking. (What do you expect them to do - time travel?)
Really, it has become senseless.
Really, it has become senseless.