Transgendered pregnancy...
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"Thomas Beatie, who used to be a woman, appeared in the most recent issue of <I>The Advocate</I>, a magazine for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender readers.
Beatie wrote the article and it included a picture of him while he was 22 weeks pregnant. According to the story, he went through a sex change, but decided only to have chest reconstruction and testosterone therapy."
Beatie wrote the article and it included a picture of him while he was 22 weeks pregnant. According to the story, he went through a sex change, but decided only to have chest reconstruction and testosterone therapy."
Transgendered persons are not "closet homosexuals" they feel as though the are one sex, trapped inside the body of the opposite sex, in most cases.meow_173 said:
Testosterone therapy results in lowered voice, greater sex drive, the growth of body and facial hair, and the end of menstruation. NOT the growth of a penis.
Metaoidioplasty or Phalloplastic surgery are the two ways of "growing a penis" in gender reassignment.
How can this be a lesbian relationship when he is living as a male?
Off topic .. and I dont know Penn, but either way does a child not have a right to know and to be given that choice? I think more harm is done to children that are not given the choice, thus why the adoption records have now been opened for the adult children.FooserX said:
1dayatatime said:
This will hit the news now ...and then again when the child is born, and will all be forgotten by everyone by the next news headline.
As far as growing up with it... a child loves unconditionally, and by the time there are to age for other children to question it, it would be fully explained to the child and would simply be "Mom and Dad"
As somebody pointed out in another forum, situations like this may have a huge impact on the gay marriage debate. When we define an individual as a man or woman. By birth certificates, what sex they want to be, or by bodily organs?
I think the child will be fine, as long as these people fade into the rest of the community (or move elsewhere and get a fresh start where their not recognized). If it continues to be a media thing (which I don't anticipate), it could cause some insecurity problems for the kid.
It really is just a woman having a baby. She's just chosen to have her breasts removed (guess that answers the bottle or breast question!) and has a lower voice and more facial and body hair than most of us (although there are days <I> I </I> could be in the running for that title!). But she's still a woman in the most basic sense of the word.
Because she CHOSE to keep those parts.
Of course there are plenty of women who've had their reproductive parts removed for medical reasons - and that's a whole different situation. It's not about removing them so they can be somebody else. If a transgender removes them (or even really wants to), I'd say they are psychologically a male. If she was really committed to being a man, she would have done that and we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Does she have a penis too? how does that work? If she doesn't, then I would say that she IS in a lesbian relationship..
I think the child will be fine, as long as these people fade into the rest of the community (or move elsewhere and get a fresh start where their not recognized). If it continues to be a media thing (which I don't anticipate), it could cause some insecurity problems for the kid.
It really is just a woman having a baby. She's just chosen to have her breasts removed (guess that answers the bottle or breast question!) and has a lower voice and more facial and body hair than most of us (although there are days <I> I </I> could be in the running for that title!). But she's still a woman in the most basic sense of the word.
Because she CHOSE to keep those parts.
Of course there are plenty of women who've had their reproductive parts removed for medical reasons - and that's a whole different situation. It's not about removing them so they can be somebody else. If a transgender removes them (or even really wants to), I'd say they are psychologically a male. If she was really committed to being a man, she would have done that and we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Does she have a penis too? how does that work? If she doesn't, then I would say that she IS in a lesbian relationship..
I guess my concern is- if "Thomas" is pregnant w/ female parts but has been taking testosterone... What effects will that have on the baby? This is obviously a high risk pregnnacy b/c of that. Will the baby come out with health concerns? "Men" don't have babies, women do & are anatomically & physiologically structured to do so.
<U></U> Budnkoda- what diff does a penis make? . Do we have to define a relationship by sex organs ? and who are we to judge? As for if he has a penis, refer to my post above
Singlemom - his testosterone therapy stopped approx. 4 months prior to attemting fertalization. From there, there was one ectopic pregnancy, followed by surgery. and then this pregnancy. This is not a high risk pregnancy, many women have elevated levels of testosterone and progesterone, just as many men have elevated levels of estrogen.
Singlemom - his testosterone therapy stopped approx. 4 months prior to attemting fertalization. From there, there was one ectopic pregnancy, followed by surgery. and then this pregnancy. This is not a high risk pregnancy, many women have elevated levels of testosterone and progesterone, just as many men have elevated levels of estrogen.
I'm well aware that testosterone isn't going to create a penis in a biological female. My question was if he somehow had one added while keeping the original equipment.
As far as your comment regarding what difference a penis makes and who are we to judge... It's not a matter of judging. No where have I condemned them for their choices. It was a statement in response to something brought up in another's post.
Sexually - yes. We are defined by those organs. Regardless of one's psychological sexual identity, if I am having sex involving a penis (vs some kind of sex toy), I am having sex with a man.
If I am having sex involving a vagina, I am having sex with a woman. And since I am a woman, that would be a lesbian experience. And that's what the circumstances are here.
An experience doesn't make you anything - gay, bi, whatever. But if that is what feels right to you, and you chose to follow your heart, then you are in a homosexual relationship (and by proxy, either gay or bisexual). That's not a judgment. It's just reality.
Look at it this way: if I were dating some guy and he told me into the relationship that he was a woman physically, I'd be out. I am not even comfortable with a guy going down on me (and on the rare occassion I've allowed it, I'm not kissing him after. The idea of tasting mself makes me gag even sitting here). So I can guarantee that I am not going to do it to somebody else. For me personally, being a lesbian is just not an option. Sure - I am probably more sexually repressed than most... but I am not capable of providing sexual stimulation to a woman, which is what it would be.
Nonsexually, I don't beleive that our organs always define who we are. However, this person chose to keep those parts because s/he "might someday want a child." But did s/he know that he was going to end up with a infertile partner? I'm guessing not. So that tells me that s/he wasn't completely ready to commit to becoming a man in body as well as spirit.
That's his/her right. But then s/he was not completely and 100% committed to being the other sex. That to me is where the line is drawn.
As I said before, if you are psychologically a man - meaning not just male tendencies, but truly committed or truly desire to be a man completely, to me, you are a man. If you are not completely committed (as with this person - hedging their bets), then I feel that you are still at the core level whomever you started out as.
And that's fine. I don't have a problem with that. At the bottom line, I just don't feel that this is any different than any other lesbian couple getting an artificial insemination.
If s/he was refused for reassignment surgery, my perspective would change. After all, they won't do it for everybody. But at this point, that is not how I understand the situation.
As far as your comment regarding what difference a penis makes and who are we to judge... It's not a matter of judging. No where have I condemned them for their choices. It was a statement in response to something brought up in another's post.
Sexually - yes. We are defined by those organs. Regardless of one's psychological sexual identity, if I am having sex involving a penis (vs some kind of sex toy), I am having sex with a man.
If I am having sex involving a vagina, I am having sex with a woman. And since I am a woman, that would be a lesbian experience. And that's what the circumstances are here.
An experience doesn't make you anything - gay, bi, whatever. But if that is what feels right to you, and you chose to follow your heart, then you are in a homosexual relationship (and by proxy, either gay or bisexual). That's not a judgment. It's just reality.
Look at it this way: if I were dating some guy and he told me into the relationship that he was a woman physically, I'd be out. I am not even comfortable with a guy going down on me (and on the rare occassion I've allowed it, I'm not kissing him after. The idea of tasting mself makes me gag even sitting here). So I can guarantee that I am not going to do it to somebody else. For me personally, being a lesbian is just not an option. Sure - I am probably more sexually repressed than most... but I am not capable of providing sexual stimulation to a woman, which is what it would be.
Nonsexually, I don't beleive that our organs always define who we are. However, this person chose to keep those parts because s/he "might someday want a child." But did s/he know that he was going to end up with a infertile partner? I'm guessing not. So that tells me that s/he wasn't completely ready to commit to becoming a man in body as well as spirit.
That's his/her right. But then s/he was not completely and 100% committed to being the other sex. That to me is where the line is drawn.
As I said before, if you are psychologically a man - meaning not just male tendencies, but truly committed or truly desire to be a man completely, to me, you are a man. If you are not completely committed (as with this person - hedging their bets), then I feel that you are still at the core level whomever you started out as.
And that's fine. I don't have a problem with that. At the bottom line, I just don't feel that this is any different than any other lesbian couple getting an artificial insemination.
If s/he was refused for reassignment surgery, my perspective would change. After all, they won't do it for everybody. But at this point, that is not how I understand the situation.
"Thomas" said on Oprah that the testosterone made the clitoris grow so that it looks like a penis.....but it doesn't function like one, of course. She has not had any surgery in that area at this time.hwnorth said:
Legally, it's a male/female relationship....physiologically, it's a lesbian relationship, as both of them still have female parts.
budnkota - My mistake.... I read .....
<I>"The testostrone has given him a penis that he can actually have intercourse with his "wife" who cannot have children."
</I>and took it as a statement, so was clarifying is all.
Im reading about "physically and psychologically a man", and intercourse with "male parts" etc.... so if the person had both male and female parts (genitalia) then what label would that have?
In this case there has been breast work already...so does that mean if his partner is fondling his breasts, she is having hetero sex, but get to the groin and its lesbian sex?
Teresa
A large clitoris DOES look like a small penis... and functions very simular actually, thus Metaoidioplasty.
physiologically, how can it be either hetero or lesbian as one of them has male and female parts.
<I>"The testostrone has given him a penis that he can actually have intercourse with his "wife" who cannot have children."
</I>and took it as a statement, so was clarifying is all.
If I may correct you here. This being an untrue statement as there are both sexes that are born with opposite sex organs, as well as born with BOTH male and female sex orgasnsbudnkota said:
Im reading about "physically and psychologically a man", and intercourse with "male parts" etc.... so if the person had both male and female parts (genitalia) then what label would that have?
In this case there has been breast work already...so does that mean if his partner is fondling his breasts, she is having hetero sex, but get to the groin and its lesbian sex?
Teresa
A large clitoris DOES look like a small penis... and functions very simular actually, thus Metaoidioplasty.
physiologically, how can it be either hetero or lesbian as one of them has male and female parts.
This is what I am not clear on - how can it legally be a male/female relationship? What do they base that decision on? Can anybody who gets their breasts removed declare themselves a man then?Teresa said:
HWNorth - thanks for the clarification. I didn't realize that statement was directed as somebody else, as I am the one who made the comment that you are referencing...
First off, how are male and female parts involved. Both have vaginas. an enlarged clitoris is not a penis, nor is an artificially manufactured facsimile
Despite their ability to be stimulated, breasts are not a sex organ. Entirely different thing. That's simply a cosmetic move, such as it would be to get a nose job or chin implants to look more masculine.
No, because that's a whole different thing. Men have breasts too - just typically not as large as an average woman's (though also exceptions to that rule). There are also plenty of women who have smaller breasts than some men. A woman who has had her breasts removed due to cancer or as a preventive measure against cancer is still a woman. Breast removal doesn't change that. (neither does uterus removal, for that matter. The difference lies in teh intent and purpose of such removal)hwnorth said:
Despite their ability to be stimulated, breasts are not a sex organ. Entirely different thing. That's simply a cosmetic move, such as it would be to get a nose job or chin implants to look more masculine.
Nope. No more than if you are having sex with a man who has developed breasts for whatever reason means that you are having sex with a woman.. two different things.
budnkota -
Again (surpised? LOL) I would have to disagree, I think that every cell of the body is a sex organ. No they arend child bearing organs, but if you use that as declaration of a sex organ then youve just cut out every man or woman thats infertile.
In my reading and research Im finding that most transgendered female to male dont actually get the vagina to penis operation because its a major operation.
So combine hormones, with emotions, mental state, breast removal and living their life as well as feeling like a male .... how can anyone judge them as a female .. as a lesbian... because they have a vagina ?
What if the person was female ... looked .. talked .. everything ... but was born with a penis? ... are they gay ?
Again (surpised? LOL) I would have to disagree, I think that every cell of the body is a sex organ. No they arend child bearing organs, but if you use that as declaration of a sex organ then youve just cut out every man or woman thats infertile.
In my reading and research Im finding that most transgendered female to male dont actually get the vagina to penis operation because its a major operation.
So combine hormones, with emotions, mental state, breast removal and living their life as well as feeling like a male .... how can anyone judge them as a female .. as a lesbian... because they have a vagina ?
What if the person was female ... looked .. talked .. everything ... but was born with a penis? ... are they gay ?
I agree with you 100% but with all the media attention surround the story it could change things a little for them. People are so mean these days I would worry about the slack they will get from ignorant people. Hopefully the whole thing will die down and nobody will put that babies face on TV or in the papersKaytee said:
Here's my understanding: Most states allow a person to change the sex listed on a birth certificate, but the requirements of this vary state-by-state. Usually, the person has to provide medical evidence that their gender has changed, either through hormone supplements alone or with gender reassignment surgery.budnkota said:
The other situation in which the sex is changed on birth certificates is when a person is found after the newborn period to be the genetically opposite sex as listed.
This thread is somewhat talking about the difference between sex and gender. Sex is determined by one's genes, with women having two X chromosomes and men having an X and a Y chromosome (with some variations for each).budnkota said:
But your gender and your genitalia may be completely different than your sex. Some boys are born without penises, while some girls are born with clitorises so large they look like penises. Other children start life with sex organs of both genders. And there are a series of related conditions in which a person appears to the outside to be a female until puberty and then takes on all the sexual characteristics of a male (they are genetically male). In these cases, genetic testing is done to establish the sex.
And your self-identified gender may also be different than your genetic sex, as with this self-identified man.
All of this is separate from one's sexual orientation. This man was attracted to women before he underwent treatment to change his gender. It seems like he would object to being called a lesbian and probably would instead say that he was self-identified heterosexual man.
But I don't really care what label folks want to place on sexual relations. What does it matter and why? He now sees himself as a man, happily married to a woman, and excited, like most soon-to-be parents, about the upcoming birth of his daughter.
thats true, if the person is a hemaphradite (I am sure I butchered that) then they can't be labled by their sex organ. Ther eare some that they believe to be fully female until a few months or so down the line and things start to look a bit different then what they should (the time when the vagina naturally opens up that is)