SPANKING revisited...

mom2many

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Jul 3, 2008
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singledad said:
Yes, it just demonstrates how little they actually understand about abuse.

It would be easier to accept if I knew that they realised how fortunate they were to be able to be that ignorant.

As I've said before - the only people who don't understand the difference between spanking and beating/abuse, is those who have never come into contact with the latter. To those of us who have seen/experienced abuse, or seen the effects of it as you have, the difference is as clear as light and day.

For the record - @tad and Piano - bssage doesn't answer to you, you have no right to force him to repeat his opinion that, in all fairness, he has already explained quite well earlier in this thread. I would suggest that, instead of attacking him for refusing to repeat himself, you go back and read the rest of this tread. ;)

Oh, and how about responding to the substance of my post, instead of just making absurd accusations based on the post-script?


I think you and I said the exact same thing a post or two apart, and nothing even said about it.
 

bssage

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Oct 20, 2008
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Its kinda funny really. If PSCT couldnt convince me. I am not sure you two have a shot. PSTC bombarded me with studies and vid's. I watched and read it all. I think most of us did. Very very educational. I think its a safe bet he spent a significant amount of time on it.

I just don't believe that a couple of swats in combination with a reasoned approach a few of times in a child's life causes more harm than good. I have not found any studies (not reports) that support that. The only thing that comes close is the MIR imaging. And I am suspect of those conclusions. I didn't have the wind to open that can of worms. Maybe another time: another thread.

Here is your answer Piano:
Show me a study (not a report of a study) with sound methodology. That supports what you are proposing. Which if I am correct. Is that any spank causes long term harm and that the harm is greater than the intended benefit.

And dont give me that non answer that goes: even if we cant (provide a study) why would you take the chance. Thats lame. The same reason I get in my car, eat foods with sugar and swim. If you did nothing that involved any level of risk. You would not do much. And my opinion is there is very little risk if any of long term harm.

FYI I should not have to defend a stupid analogy but.

Dad had been clearing the yard all day. We lived in the country. He was burning the cleared material and continuing to work on clearing the yard waste and weeds. The garage door was open because he was in and out getting tools and such. The gas was in a can behind the riding lawn tractor.

for the last 40 years. I know not to carry a can of gas by a burning fire. Even when I did not know the elemental fire triangle "oxygen, fuel, & ignition" I knew not to do that again.

Now that I am a dad myself. I can imagine that it scared the crap out of him at the time.

PS tad: since you brought it up.

I warned you as a moderator.
I gave you negative rep as a person.
 
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Mom2all

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bssage said:
Show me a study (not a report of a study) with sound methodology. That supports what you are proposing. Which if I am correct. Is that any spank causes long term harm and that the harm is greater than the intended benefit.
From my earlier post.... :)
.. a longitudinal study by Trulane University in 2010 controlled for a wide variety of confounding variables and still found negative outcomes in children who were spanked more than twice per month.
On the other hand, the study did not show a statistically significant difference between spanking once or twice per month and not spanking at all.

I suggest that eveyone read it. We might all really learn something. :D

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/113/5/1321.full?sid=93c08619-c463-4aae-b963-d2d0a600c6ba[/URL]
 

parentastic

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bssage said:
Its kinda funny really. If PSCT couldnt convince me. I am not sure you two have a shot. PSTC bombarded me with studies and vid's. I watched and read it all. I think most of us did. Very very educational.
Thanks! I am glad they were interesting :)

I think its a safe bet he spent a significant amount of time on it.
Indeed :D

bssage said:
I just don't believe that a couple of swats in combination with a reasoned approach a few of times in a child's life causes more harm than good. I have not found any studies (not reports) that support that.
Perhaps one of the problem here a need to go back at the definition of research and look at that first. Epistemology is not an easy problem: how to we know something is valid or not?

I think many people who look at studies are mostly looking for (and believing) in <I>statistical studies</I> (quantitative studies) in order to get an empirical and verifiable result. Of course, this raises all sort of methodology problems: is the sample significant and representative? A mild effect can be detrimental, but if it's not strong enough to be statistically significant, it becomes invalid in qualitative research.

However it's not the only type of research: another kind of research in social science, qualitative research attempts to use in depth data to understand <I>what's happening</I> during a phenomenon and then this allows inferences to be made in a reliable way.

Bssage, I am curious to hear if you have heard of qualitative research (not the typical statistical quantitative research!) and what's your opinion on these. (first in general, then we can talk about spanking).

bssage said:
The only thing that comes close is the MIR imaging. And I am suspect of those conclusions. I didn't have the wind to open that can of worms. Maybe another time: another thread.
Interesting! I'd love to read what you have found, would you share it?
 
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bssage

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I spent a lot of time (19yrs) in my last job mostly statistics gathering and manipulating them for a manufacturing component in the auto industry. Both running R&amp;D trials as a assosiate chemist and a process engineer. Then proving the results reproducibility/repeatability of those trials as a product engineer and Quality engineer. I am out of that field altogether now. Whew. I spent a mind numbing amount of time collecting data and reporting it.

parentastic said:
Interesting! I'd love to read what you have found, would you share it?
I would like to do that. Right now I kinda gotta a lotta crap going on. We have reroutes on my RR line and a tree fell on my car that I have to replace. And I put up a pool along with doing some landscaping. Getting Chloe into a Autism specific school ect ect ect...

I know some of you think I am avoiding the big questions. Its just that I dont have the time to follow them how I like to.

I dont want to get something started I cant finish. I really just pop in on the web check a few of my regular places like here and pop right back out. It should slow down when the snow starts to fall. I will have more time then.

bssage
 

singledad

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From this thread:
jack123 said:
parents need to stop them or shout at them when they are doing something wrong.
I can't help but wonder about what is going on here. There is a 17 page debate raging about spanking, with lots of people getting very emotional about it on both sides, and in between a lot of very good information being passed around. Nothing wrong with that.

The problem I have is this: Earlier in this thread I posted a link to a thread where someone asked if he should intervene in a household where he suspected abuse. The signs were clear, but he was unsure, because he had no proof that they were beating the kids and there was always food on the table. My post, and my opinion that the disproportionate amount of attention that the spanking debate gets while other damaging parenting behaviours are all but ignored, coupled with the ridiculous, but all too common assertion that spanking=abuse, leaves Joe Public with the impression that abuse=beating up your kids.

This time, we have a recommendation that parents should shout at their kids, and only one person have picked up on it, pointing out that it is generally unnecessary. No outcry. No novels posted, listing dozens of studies about the ill effects of shouting at kids and verbal abuse. Has this even been studied at all?

We've also had recommendations that children should be ignored, and many other things that made my hair raise. But those threads die down within a few days.

What are we saying here? That the most important thing in parenting is to not spank? Everything else is fine, including neglect and verbal abuse, as long as you don't physically hurt the kids? Isn't it time we step back and realize that there are many, many things that parents do every day, that are at least as dangerous, and often far more dangerous than spanking, but yet are perfectly legal and socially acceptable? Why is spanking the only form of parenting behaviour that ever results in such a public outcry?

IDK, perhaps I am being hysterical, but having once been the child who got his brother to beat him up, in the hopes that having bruises will get some attention when he accused his foster father of abusing him, I can testify that if there is no proof that a child is being beat up or starved, it is near impossible to get help.

Please note - I'm not saying we shouldn't discuss this topic. All I'm asking is for everyone to reconsider whether spanking deserves to be singled out the way it is. Can't we all just share what we believe, state our opinions, agree to disagree, and move on to the next topic?
 

cybele

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I think it has more to do with parenting 'trends' than anything else.

When I had Dita and Azriel 'no shouting' was a bit of a trend, daycare (or creche, at the time, I don't think I have heard that word in ages) was so freaking cool and no one gave two hoots if you formula fed or spanked.

When Sunny and Lux were young 'uns, it was the word 'no' that was evil. You cannot tell your child no, don't, can't or won't, it will crush their creative spirit, if they want to lick the slide at the playground then dammit, you let them lick the slide, and if you didn't want them to lick it, then you would come up with some mumbo jumbo like "It makes Mummy sad when you lick the slide because germs make Mummy's soul cry" people started looking down on those who spanked (of course, that was crushing their fragile little spirits to) and heaven forbid you buy them non-educational toys. What do you want to raise anyway? I was advised once that I shouldn't tell 4yr old Lux "Don't have your soup just yet because it is still very hot" because that makes her soup negative, instead I should tell her "Mummy feels it would be best for you to have your soup later once it has cooled down, however it is your decision"
There was also a very odd fad then of speaking in third person, which just sounded stupid to me.

Then, when I had Sash, I have to admit, I was out of the game for a while, and I came back in with the "YOU PUT YOUR CHILD IN A PRAM? DIE YOU EVIL WOMAN!" "YOU STOPPED BREASTFEEDING AT 6 MONTHS? DO YOU WANT TO KILL YOUR CHILD?" "YOUR CHILD SLEEPS IN THEIR OWN BED? DO YOU HATE YOUR SON?" among other things that are big no-no's nowadays, and spanking happens to be one of them.

Go back 15-20 odd years and people would have been up in arms about raising your voice at your child, because it was the trend at the time. There is always going to be one thing that is "so much more evil" than everything else, and in the end, there are a whole combination of things that can screw up your kids, you just have to know them, know yourself and use a bit of common sense about it.

After going through three different 'generations' of parenting (I don't know, i've noticed it takes around 5 years for parenting trends to roll over) I tend to take most trends with a grain of salt. I maintain that a rare swat on the bum isn't going to cause a child to crumble up and their soul to die, however, many people will argue that it will, and that's fine and dandy, as long as they are not getting ridiculous over it, such as equating it to abuse, because abuse isn't something to be taken lightly.
 

PianoLover

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Oct 14, 2011
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This, from the Huffington Post

Lisa Belkin said:
Why Does Everyone Pretend There's A 'Spanking Debate'?


Spanking was a subject of debate on every parenting website on the continent during the past week, and I don't understand why.
Yes, I know why it was a topic of <I>conversation</I> -- the prestigious journal <I>Pediatrics</I> released a study early in the week showing a possible link between childhood spanking and mental health struggles later in that child's life, and that was news worth talking about.
What I don't understand is why it was a <I>debate</I>. By definition, that would require two sides. I see only one.
At what point does something become simple fact? The <I>Pediatrics</I> article was just the latest in a decades-long march of studies showing spanking -- defined as hitting with an open hand in order to correct or punish -- to be ineffective at best and psychologically harmful at worst.
In April, an article in the <I>Canadian Medical Association Journal</I> analyzed two decades of data and concluded that spanking has no upside, and its downsides include increased risk for depression, anxiety, substance abuse and aggressive behavior later in life.
A few years earlier, another <I>Pediatrics</I> study, this one by researchers at Tulane University, concluded that children who are spanked as often as twice a month at age 3 are twice as likely to become aggressive, destructive and mean when they are 5.
And it has been a decade since Columbia University psychologists went through more than 80 studies over 62 years and found that there was a "strong correlation" between parents who used "corporal punishment" and children who demonstrated 11 measurable childhood behaviors. Ten of the behaviors were negative, including such things as increased aggression and increased antisocial behavior. Only one could be considered positive -- spanking did result in "immediate compliance."
So would pointing a gun in their general direction. But that does not make it the right thing to do. And, as other research points out, if that temporary compliance comes at the price of long-term depression or defiance, then what has really been gained?

In spite of this mountain of data, though, polls and studies find that up to 90 percent of parents spank their children. And each time we parenting reporters write about the latest studies, our comment threads fill with practitioners, whose remarks range from outrage ("I was hit and I turned out okay god damn it") to despair ("I don't want to hit, but it is the only way I can get them to listen"). (You can get the idea here...)
I am continually amazed at what it takes to redirect parenting opinion. It is dizzying how quickly one study or article can -- sometimes -- change our ways. We started placing infants on their backs rather than their stomachs when there were hints of correlation, but not proof of causation, with crib death. Pregnant women stopped having sushi, soft cheese, caffeine and even a sip of alcohol on the remote but striking possibility that a small amount could have consequences. BPA bottles disappeared in certain circles overnight when there was an unofficial link to cancer.
But other times, we just don't want to know. In that way the spanking conversation is like the vaccine "debate." In spite of no credible evidence of a link with autism, and many studies that tried and failed to find such a link, there are some minds that just won't change.
<I>Your parents hit you, and you are okay?</I> They probably smoked around you, too, and they didn't make you wear a seatbelt, either, but we know better now. Also, might I respectfully ask how you <I>know </I>that you're okay? Perhaps if your parents hadn't hit their kids, you wouldn't feel a need to hit your own?
<I>It is the only thing that works when your children won't listen?</I> Swedish children are not running amok in the streets, and spanking has been illegal there since 1979. Sweden was the first of 32 countries -- including Costa Rica, Israel, Kenya and most of Europe -- to approve such a law.
Some questions really don't have two sides. "Is it okay to do something to your child that would land you in jail if you did it to a stranger on the street?" is one of those. You can phrase it other ways too -- like "Is it okay to hurt a child because it serves your immediate goal when science shows it can lead to long-term harm?" But there is still just one answer.
And yet, we keep seeing it presented as a disagreement.
"To Spank or Not to Spank" was the headline on both the"Good Morning America" segment on Thursday about the latest <I>Pediatrics</I> study. The "Today" piece added the tagline: "Mommy Wars: Raging Parenting Debate," and a Babble blogger was found to represent each side.



But there aren't two sides. There is a preponderance of fact, and there are people who find it inconvenient to accept those facts.


Where, exactly is the debate?
 

bssage

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Oct 20, 2008
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bssage said:
Here is your answer Piano:
Show me a study (not a report of a study) with sound methodology. That supports what you are proposing. Which if I am correct. Is that any spank causes long term harm and that the harm is greater than the intended benefit.
Now maybe some blogger at of all places the "Huffington Post" has something new? NOT. Did you read the studies in the links? All but one had already been noted on the thread. If you have time: You may want to actually read the newest one in their link. Not the summary: there is a link in the link to the study and methodology.

There is no need to respond. I know what it says. If you get something new: Share. Otherwise I really dont feel like repeating myself a million times.

Ps you should continue reading the Huffington Post. Its a vast resource of opinions stated as fact.
 
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parentastic

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As of 10 days ago, the Delaware state in US has officially outlawed spanking.
See article here:

When Governor Jack Markell signed into law Senate Bill 234 on September 12, 2012, Delaware became the first state in the in the nation to effectively outlaw corporal discipline of children by their parents.



Sponsored by Senate Majority Leader Patricia M. Blevins (District 7), the legislation creates a definition of the term “physical injury” in the child abuse and neglect laws to include “pain.” Currently the law permits a parent to use force to punish a child for misconduct, but it prohibits any act that is likely to cause or does cause physical injury. By defining “physical injury” to include the infliction of pain on a child, spanking has become a crime in Delaware punishable by imprisonment.



Under the new law, a parent causing “physical injury” (e.g., pain) to a child under age 18 would be guilty of a class A misdemeanor and subject to one year in prison. A parent causing pain to a child who was 3 years of age or younger would be guilty of a class G felony and subject to two years in prison.
We can debate about it all day, but after 32 countries have already banned this practice, USA is slowly getting there.
 

bssage

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Oct 20, 2008
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Oddly enough I see no mention of spanking in the bill. I do see this :
(a) "Abuse" means causing any physical injury to a child through unjustified force as definedin �468(1)(c) of this title, torture, negligent treatment, sexual abuse, exploitation, maltreatment, mistreatment or any means other than accident.
And this:
<U>(j) "Physical injury" to a child shall mean any impairment of physical condition or </U>
<U>pain.</U>
Seems kind overaly broad. I guess I should not make the kids get shots anymore.

And if you senior student wants to participate in senior skip day:
(f) "Truancy" or "truant" shall refer to a pupil enrolled in grades kindergarten through 12 of a public school who has been absent from school for more than 3 school days during a school year without a valid excuse as defined in regulations of the district board of education of the school district in which the pupil is or should be enrolled pursuant to the provisions of Title 14, or where a student is enrolled in a charter school, by the board of directors of the charter school.
And I fail to see this :
Currently the law permits a parent to use force to punish a child for misconduct
in the edited law.

these were the things removed from the original law:
<U>�1103.1100.</U> Definitions relating to children.
(1) Being a parent, guardian or any other person who has assumed responsibility for the care or supervision of a child less than 18 years old the person:

a. Knowingly <U>Intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly</U> acts in a manner likely to be injurious to the physical, mental or moral welfare of the child; or

�615<U>§1103B. Child Abuse in the First Assault by abuse or neglect; class B felony.

(a) A person is guilty of causes serious physical injury to a child:
Had to highlight the "strikethru changes formatting wouldn't copy for some reason . Red is what has been removed from the original law.

Oh I guess we could take a reporter at face value knowing they would never selectively use facts to sell themselves. And HSLDA of course is such a highly valued news source that we can assume they already did all the fact checking for us.

I am pretty sure My debate ended many post ago.

Giving you a hard time pstc. IMHO it a ridiculous self contradicting, unenforceable law made in an election season
 
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singledad

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Ok, this is a BILL, to amend the actual law. So, please, somebody - PLEASE tell me that this isn't the full definition of child abuse! :(:mad::mad:

"Abuse" means causing <U>any physical injury to a child</U> through unjustified force as defined in §468(1)(c) of this title, torture, negligent treatment, sexual abuse, exploitation, maltreatment, mistreatment or any means other than accident.
<U>
</U>(a) A person is guilty of child abuse in the third degree when:
(1) The person recklessly or intentionally <U>causes physical injury</U> to a child through an act of abuse and/or neglect of such child; or
(2) The person recklessly or intentionally causes <U>physical injury</U> to a child when the person has engaged in a previous pattern of abuse and/or neglect of such child.
etc, etc.

So,
Screaming and swearing at a child and calling the child cruel names is ok.
Locking the child in a dark cupboard is ok, as long as it doesn't cause physical harm.
Depriving the child of love is fine.
Emotionally or psychologically tormenting a child is fine.
Humiliating a child is fine.
etc, etc.
All, as long as you don't cause physical injury, or do any of that list of illegal sexual act.

I feel sick.

And here I was, thinking that the misconception that abuse = beating or starving your child, or sexual abuse was just public ignorance. Unless there is more in the actual act, that is exactly what this law states.

I think of all those children who can't be helped, because "I'm sorry, what he's doing isn't illegal", and I don't know if I should scream or cry of throw things or what... the reality, until the law makers wake the hell up, nothing anyone does or says can save those children... :mad::mad::(
 

singledad

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singledad said:
Ok, this is a BILL, to amend the actual law. So, please, somebody - PLEASE tell me that this isn't the full definition of child abuse! :(:mad::mad:
Ok, So I found the actual legislation in the Internet. It is not quite as bad as I thought, but it is still far from good.
(a) A person is guilty of endangering the welfare of a child when:
(1) Being a parent, guardian or any other person who has assumed responsibility for the care or supervision of a child less than 18 years old the person:
a. Knowingly acts in a manner likely to be injurious to the physical, <U>mental or moral welfare</U> of the child;
So, at least the law does make provision for acts that affects the child emotionally or "mentally". But it is considered only as "endangering the welfare of a child", not "abuse". Perhaps one of the Americans on here can tell me how this affects social workers / police's power to step in, and whether it is still covered by "mandatory reporting" laws.

Lower down:
(2) When serious physical injury to a child occurs while the child's welfare was endangered as defined in subsection (a) of this section, endangering the welfare of a child is a class G felony;
And
(4) In all other cases, endangering the welfare of a child is a class A misdemeanor.
So in essence, you can so whatever the hell you want to a child, but as long as you don't cause physical injury, you only get a misdemeanor. So you can keep a child locked in a small closet, only let him/her out to do all the housework, threaten his/her life, and tell him/her hourly that they aren't a human being and you hate that they even exist, etc, etc, and still...

Yup, you've got it: <U>You won't go to jail for more than a year. </U>

Nice.

So abuse is, after all, beating, starving or sexual abuse. :mad::mad::mad: How many other states have such pathetically ignorant child-abuse laws?
 

Cartter

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Now that is something to which you should put a age restriction. If a child is more than the age of 7 or 8 you should stop practicing such methods to control the behavior of your children.
 

singledad

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TabascoNatalie said:
With physical violence it is very straightforward: you hit a child - it is violence. Verbal, mental abuse is much harder to define or prove. That's why the law focuses on the physical side.
So in other words - lets do something simple and easy to make it look like we care about abused children, and screw those kids without physical injuries. They're way too hard to help. They must fend for themselves. :mad:

It makes me sick. :arghh::arghh:
 

tadamsmar

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Jun 21, 2012
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Suppose we stipulate that 2 spankings a month (that is, spankings below some threshold of injury) are never harmful.

Is there any convincing evidence that they are useful?

If there is no convincing evidence that it's useful, then why bother? Why waste the effort?